Brent Hill, Executive Director at South Australia Tourism Commission, sits down with host Mark Jones to discuss how tourism marketers can continue to connect their audience to the stories of what their destination has to offer during COVID-19.
While COVID-19 continues to impact the economy at large, and business operations across most industries, the tourism sector was hit hard and early in the peace with travel restrictions and major event cancellations at a local and global scale stifling its ability to trade on all sides – travel, accommodation, experiences, etc.
Tourism marketers have therefore been faced with quite the conundrum the past few months: how do they continue to market destinations that the public can’t visit?
Brent Hill, Executive Director at South Australia Tourism Commission, believes that it is critical for destination marketers to find ways to continue connecting people to the stories of what their destination has to offer, but to also take some time to look to the future and plan for the recovery stage.
While not able to physically welcome people to the state, the South Australia Tourism Commission launched #SATV – a content channel home to videos filmed throughout the COVID-19 lockdown period to take audiences on a virtual holiday through South Australia.
“We may not be able to bring people to South Australia, but our programme called SATV can bring South Australia to you. Although you can’t go on tours, wildlife tours or shark cave diving as we are all at home, we are capturing raw and authentic content with GoPros,” Brent says.
“It is important that our content is engaging and resonates with our audience, which is why we prefer it to be live and authentic where our audience can ask questions, rather than edited and scripted. When we are able to go to people who we know are great characters with a great product, we can spin a great story which has resulted in average view times of around five minute which is extraordinary,” he says.
Although the main capabilities of tourism operators have been hindered by COVID-19, Brent encourages marketers to think of the pandemic as an opportunity to collaborate and engage with audiences through the enduring power of content.
“We have so many gin distilleries, breweries and wineries in South Australia who have pivoted really quickly to offer people the opportunity to receive their products and local produce delivered to their door. On SATV, we have developed a virtual tip jar which encourages our online audiences to slide $5 or $10 online to help these businesses keep the wheels turning as we start to plan for recovery,” Brent says.
“We are supporting our tourism businesses, and giving them a way to survive, keep employing their people and get through these tough and unprecedented times.”
Tune into this episode of The CMO Show to discover how South Australia Tourism Commission is navigating the challenges of COVID-19 and supporting their businesses on the road to recovery.
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Host: Mark Jones
Guest: Brent Hill
Mark Jones: One of the surprising things to happen during these isolation days is many of us are working together in more creative and collaborative ways. For example, we’re starting to see selfie videos make their way into advertising creative, but one of my favourites is injecting fresh energy into your Zoom meetings by asking a Californian farmer to invite one of his llamas to your Zoom meetings. Now, of course it sounds a bit silly but we do live in unprecedented times. So how is your marketing rising to the occasion?
Mark Jones: Hello there, Mark Jones great to have you with us again on the CMO show. Now I’m really excited our guest today is Brent Hill. He’s executive director of marketing at South Australian Tourism Commission and there is a lot to talk about when it comes to tourism. Quite simply because of this little conundrum, how do you market a destination you can’t visit? so we’ve invited Brent Hill on to talk about his experience. What can we learn from this situation? And in particular it’s interesting to reflect on a couple of activities. SATV is a really interesting campaign they brought to life, and also if you think about what South Australia has been through… in fact all of Australia as we had of course the Bush fire season and now into COVID-19. How do you tell a story amid such trauma and difficulty?
Mark Jones: So it’s a really interesting conversation, let’s hear what Brent has to say.
Mark Jones: Brent Hill, he’s the executive director of marketing at SA Tourism Commission. It is great to have you with us on the show.
Brent Hill: Thanks Mark, its great to be here.
it’s a Friday here and so I’m a bit upbeat because the weekend is coming, but honestly this is a very difficult time. If you think about the tourism industry in general it’s just going through an unbelievable time, at the time of recording this the week that’s just gone we’ve seen Virgin Australia going to voluntary administration, which is I think one of those moments in time which is really quite significant. So just to get us going tell me what’s it like in South Australia at the moment?
Brent Hill: Yeah, look it’s… yeah, there’s no denying that it’s very tough. I think first and foremost obviously this is a health issue, so we’re wanting to be concerned about making sure that people are healthy to start with, and our industry has definitely played a role in that but the economic impact is extraordinary, and especially when you consider that it’s coming off the back of some pretty savage bush fires which occurred over the summer as well. So our industry here has really had a tough… pretty much all the way through 2020, and it’s good to see that there is a little bit of a light at the end of the tunnel perhaps, and Australia is doing well and South Australia in particular is doing well. But yeah definitely very unprecedented times, I know people overuse that word but I’ve never seen anything like this in my lifetime, and a lot of the industry veterans that I’ve spoken to have said it’s been something they’ve never seen before.
Mark Jones: Well, you’re quite right when you think about the impact of the bush fires, which alone would take a long time to recover from and now of course just a complete shutdown. When you think about the impact do you have any stories that illustrate businesses or organisations or any of the dollar figures that really give us a better picture of what’s happening in your state?
Brent Hill: Yeah, like I remember through the bushfire period talking to one operator who operated on Kangaroo Island and that was in January, and they said that the year before they’d done $252,000 in revenue and this year they’d done $9,000, because they hadn’t really had the opportunity to open their doors. So with businesses like that where they’ve already suffered through the bush fires, as you can imagine coming into the COVID period they weren’t able to really do any revenue at all and Kangaroo Island is now largely shut off from the mainland. So that was one example and then if you think about the big hotels, the Hilton hotel, the Intercontinental et cetera. I think it really hit home to me when these are guys that normally would run a 80% occupancy, 90% occupancy from September to December we had record occupancy levels in our hotels. and then to hear that they had one floor with guests in it… just one floor out of the entire 20 odd storeys that are there and most of those people were essential workers, staying there for reasons related to COVID-19. So really, really unprecedented time.
Mark Jones: So what are you hearing in tourism circles and from the government when it comes to timeframes when this might change? And how does that impact your thinking?
Brent Hill: Look, the good news is that we are getting… we are starting to see some light at the end of the tunnel. Of course it’s done a lot of damage and you can’t take away from unfortunately the loss of life that’s occurred as well, but we definitely are starting to see that real flattening of the curve.
Brent Hill: I think from that perspective an easing of restrictions is something that is now on the agenda potentially within the next two to four weeks, and what that will look like I think that we’ll start with obviously intrastate and drive tourism, day trips these kinds of things and then I think it will slowly unwind as with pretty much as we went in.
Mark Jones: So as a marketer what’s your focus now? How do you market something that can’t be done?
Brent Hill: Yeah, it’s a good question. So we’ve done probably three main things, so the first thing that we did was… we are a government entity so we’ve got to support our industry. We have 18,000 businesses out there so providing grants, we’re up skilling people. So we’re providing and subsidising things like digital programmes, we have also put together a programme called Resilience and Rebound and a lot of it is just literally how we can get from day to day, week to week, month to month get people to survive through this. Obviously, things [inaudible 00:08:26] payments and so on have been exceptional to get their industry through that’s very helpful. So, that’s probably the main thing first of all that helping side.
Brent Hill: The second thing we did was we looked at it and said, “Well, what can we do to pivot given that you’ve got an audience largely at home, and a lot of our industry could actually provide eCommerce solutions.” So things like… if you imagine we have so many gin distilleries, breweries, wineries et cetera here in South Australia. So what a lot of those guys did was they said, “Why are restaurants closed? We’ve got all this produce… local produce,” and they put it together into a survival boxes. So the great thing was we actually saw a lot of these businesses pivot very quickly to offer things like their wine and their gin and so on matched with the local produce and delivered to your door. So not traditional tourism but it means that the tourism business is able to survive, keep employing their people and get through. So we developed a programme called SATV which is… we can’t bring people to South Australia, we’re going to bring South Australia to you.
Brent Hill: So we’re using all of our audience to get people to take notice of these offerings that are out there and go and support them. So we were doing things like… there are tours, wildlife tours, wild watching tours et cetera where again you can’t go on those tours, but they are doing GoPro versions of it and the zoo and so forth, and then when you watch that if you like that, we’ve developed this thing called a virtual tip jar. So if you’re watching it on your computer and you think that looks great, you can slide them $5 or $10 online and again, it just keeps them ticking over and getting to the other side. So that’s the kind of stuff that we’ve been doing just to try and keep the wheels turning as we start to plan for recovery.
Mark Jones: Well, what’s interesting about that and we’ve seen this around the world, has been the rise invideo and video in two different types. So prerecorded and putting out traditional marketing style materials, but I think live… that live streaming cause it’s obviously so easy. If you use the social platforms you can live stream anything any time. Just how significantly mainstream it’s become and I wonder what lessons you’re learning right now that you think that this actually may carry on… may carry through to how as marketers we think about the basic sort of job that we do.
Brent Hill: That’s a great point Mark, and I think one of the things that we’ve seen is the acceptance of being a little bit more low-fi because what you get is really authentic and raw insight and content. So I think there’s always going to be space for beautifully produced epic shoots, but I think more and more and more you’re going to see a quick turnaround using basic tools like mobile phones et cetera, and using all this tech that’s out there to be able to get some of that raw and authentic content across.
Mark Jones: How are you doing this in a way that can be planned, it can be understood, can be brought around a single focus? I mean you’ve got the hashtag #SATV as an example. So you’ve got this traditional narrative that you’ve created as a… if you like a campaign and you can start slotting things together under that, but how do you think about this from a sort of a planning and a strategy perspective?
Brent Hill: Yeah, look it’s been a big job because obviously what we’ve got is a lot of the industry all wanting to provide content, and of course content is still… it still has to be engaging still. It’s still really important that it has to really resonate. So from our perspective we’ve had to go through… we’ve developed fact sheets for the industry, sent them out and said this is what we need and the better ones have been able to do Facebook live top stuff which is great. So we use their audience and our audience and then we put it onto our website and it stays there going forward as well. So the advantage of doing live is of course you can do things like Q&A.
Brent Hill: So if I go back to what I was saying before around some of those pieces of content, we’ve got chefs that are telling you how to cook some of their amazing recipes and so at various spots you can actually interject and say, “Well hang on, I’m actually doing this live at the same time as you and I’m a bit lost here. Do I need to boil all this or fry this?” And like from that perspective… that’s one of the things that I’ve seen that we’ve only very rarely touched on before that maybe on the other side of this… I love that one on one interaction and people being able to query an accommodation provider and say, “Which of the villas do you think has the best view?” And they say, “I’ll show you. I’ll show you what the view is so you can see that, say what you think.” That kind of interaction is fantastic.
Mark Jones: It’s interesting in the history of content marketing if you go back five plus years ago, it was all about volume of content and we were doing a lot of blogs, a lot of written content and just get it all out there and then we went to a really strong targeted phase where it was about make sure I really finely matched my content to the target audience, and make sure they see it and we’ve seen more sophistication as time goes on. Are we repeating history then? Because it sounds to me like we’re doing the same thing but with video, get it all out there, make it live, make it interactive and make it this kind of real experience. But you still have a lot of the basic problems like, if a tree falls in the forest that old metaphor, right? So is anyone going to see this thing?
Brent Hill: I mean it’s a great point you make and what we’ve always said through this is yes, it’s a great opportunity, unprecedented opportunity of how many people are going to be consuming content right now. But everybody around the world is doing the same thing and realising everybody’s at home. So it’s still… yeah, like I say it has to still be good. So I guess the advantage that we’ve got is over the last four or five years, we’ve built up a world class digital programme. So we’re pretty brutal when we put something up it has to perform and if the video is just not being opened and not being clicked on, we toss it out and we get something else to come in. So I think from that perspective, that’s one of the key things that we’ve sort of found is you still have to get things that resonate.
Brent Hill: I mean one of the… as you can imagine one of the pieces of content that we got, which we knew would work well and it just was gangbusters was, we have shark cage diving here in South Australia. So we had an interview to promote that with Rodney Fox, who was actually attacked by a great white shark. So he talked about his whole experience of literally being attacked by a great white shark, and then how off the back of that he worked with Jaws, the movie and came up with this concept of putting a cage over the back of the boat, so you could actually cage dive with sharks and how that’s become a multimillion dollar industry. I mean just me talking about that it’s fascinating, you can imagine what it’s like from him and… yeah, so 36,000 people have seen that video so far, so that’s incredible.
Mark Jones: Yeah. So that really kind of gets to the point is that you need a story that cuts through, so it’s got to be a good idea but actually being able to tell a story is… that’s really the game, right? So how do you do that from your perspective? I mean you mentioned training up people, giving them guides. How do you equip all of these business owners across the state to become better storytellers?
Brent Hill: Yeah, look it’s hard. It’s definitely hard because sometimes you literally have to tell somebody their baby’s ugly. But yeah it is probably a case where what we’ve found that’s worked well we’re able to go to the people that we know are great characters, can spin a great story and they’ve got a great product and it’s going to work well for us and them and we put them up first. So we’ve kind of made sure that the stuff that’s up there first is actually things that are working really well, and then what we’ve said to people is, “Look, go and take a look at Rodney Fox. Go and take a look at Duncan Welgemoed from Africola restaurant. Go and take a look at the zookeeper showing you through the orangutan population down at the zoo and have a look at that and go… you can see why it’s resonating. You can see why it’s doing really well because they’re talking and they’re showing you things and explaining things and it’s not boring.” We are getting average view times of around five minutes which is extraordinary.
Mark Jones: Yeah, which reminds me of the llamas in California, right? Yeah, you can book a llama to join your Zoom meeting. So people… if the human talent’s no good get yourself a llama, get yourself some animal talent, right?
Brent Hill: Like it is that thing with content Mark, and I’m sure you guys would understand this as well. Like it’s different when you’ve got an audience who are trying to watch something live, you have to be conversing with them almost the whole time. I mean another example – there’s a yoga studio that’s very popular in the city and a lot of tourists that come and stay in the city often go down to the studio, they’ve pivoted to doing live yoga sessions. Now normally they would do breaks in between because they would just be walking around with their class. They’ve realised they’ve actually got to keep talking the whole time, otherwise people will think there’s some technical problem. Because all of a sudden if there’s a gap of 10, 20 seconds where no one’s saying anything they’re like, “What happened? What went wrong?” So that’s what we found as well is that just little adjustments here and there, and we do prefer it to be live and really authentic rather than really edited and scripted because that comes across.
Mark Jones: Yeah, which then… that’s a nice segue too, because I’m wondering how many of them do you think will stick, will carry on? Cause they… I’m sorry to use the cliche, we talk about the new normal. If you think about us as marketers and the way we’re really being pushed into this real time live environment, I wonder how much of that is going to stay or are we going to sort of… there’s going to be a sense of like, “Oh, I just want to go back to eDMs and old comfortable things, right?
Brent Hill: Yeah, look I mean there’s some people that will do that. I think the forward thinking market is amongst us and it’s that expression “never waste a crisis”. I think from our perspective SATV was born out of a need, but we’ve looked at it going, “Well, maybe our YouTube channel can become a permanent SATV home” for example. I think things like video conferencing is a given. I think a lot of people were sort of dipping their toes into it and having issues and are you still on mute Mark? And all this kind of stuff. I think people started to work that out now and work out how to best use it and I think that’s going to be something that going forward is going to change lives.
Mark Jones: What are the goals that you have right now? How are you setting KPIs for your team? Is it just about a holding pattern?
Brent Hill: Yeah, so share of voice is probably our primary one right now and we’re doing well in that space. We definitely wanted to make sure that we weren’t black through this process. So by that I mean that we literally just… a lot of destinations have come out at the start of COVID and said, “Here’s our beautiful destination, it’s the right thing to not come right now because of safety and we’ll talk to you on the flip side.” Whereas we felt that it was important that we actually maintained a dialogue throughout this so that we could grow our brand. So actually our KPIs are two things one is share a voice, and then the other is we still have this platform. We get six million visitors to SouthAustralia.com a year and we’ve got two and a half million followers, I mean now is the time to use that audience.
Brent Hill: So we’re telling our audience about… as I said those survival boxes, virtual tours et cetera, et cetera and what we’re starting to see is the tourism guys are coming back to us and saying, “You know what? I’m actually selling out of those boxes. I’m going to do more,” and I’m just going to give you one example of that, there is a business that was running a wine tour business up through the Barossa Valley in a beautiful wine country, and as you can imagine no one’s getting on their little tour buses anymore. So they then went around to all of the areas in Barossa and got food from chefs, they got wine from winemakers, they got gin from gin distillers, they got a bread from bakeries et cetera. pulled it all together and said, “We will bring the Barossa to your door,” and they used all their tour guide drivers as delivery drivers and then what was great about that was that we obviously supported that, push that out, amplified that off the back of that. It’s gone so well that they then went to another couple of tourism operators who operate Segways through the city, and those guys obviously couldn’t run because there was nobody in the city and they were doing literally nothing and so I said, “Why don’t you guys come and drive for us because we have huge demand.” So the beauty from that perspective is, okay, that’s not necessarily their normal stock and trade, but when the box comes it’s got their normal business, they’ve got little brochures on there. The Segway guys give you all their details about what they do and I think on one side they’ve got money coming through the door, but on the other they’re actually helping build their brands.
Brent Hill: So the next time I think about [inaudible 00:22:58] I’m going to think about those guys. So I think that kind of thing is genius and I think our job as a destination is to amplify that.
Mark Jones: Hey, another thing that a lot of marketers and particularly senior marketers and CMOs marketing directors are thinking about is, are these new ideas? I’m wondering where do you get your inspiration? What are you looking at?
Brent Hill: So where that came from was that during the bush fire period we saw that there was a singer, high profile singer and she said, “I’m going to do a performance, a live performance,” and obviously people could buy tickets but she said, “I’ve got a virtual ticket show opportunity where you could actually log in, watch her show and you could pay whatever you thought it was worth. That sort of stuck in our head, so when it came to well how do we get some of these guys across the line with virtual tours? That’s where the virtual tip jar idea came from. So we actually did a bit of research, we found a payment company out of California who could facilitate that for us. It could pass it straight through it cause we didn’t want to… there was a lot of that issue around bush fires where people were concerned about where the money was going, and so we didn’t want to have an intermediary, we wanted it to literally go straight into their bank account and so it’s all secure, there’s no way of compromised details et cetera.
Brent Hill: So you look at something like that and you go, that’s learning from a completely different industry. Another example was, we’ve seen the brewing industry come up with some great initiatives where you can buy a beer at your local, and then you go in when COVID restrictions ease and go and redeem it. So it’s a way of getting cashflow, right? So it’s like I buy a $7 beer and then in three months time when restrictions ease, I can go in there and get that long awaited beer. That’s just a great way of keeping their product top of mind. So you look at that and go, “That’s great, can we support that? But also what could we do similar to that potentially.”
Mark Jones: So, it sounds to me like you guys are very much on the front foot. Is there anything that you’ve not done well that you wish you’d done better?
Brent Hill: Look, I mean it’s hard because when you’re moving so quickly like this year there’s always going to be a few things that sort of flip out the side of that. So I’d like to think that we’ve… if anything’s gone a bit awry, we’ve been able to get it back and get it back reasonably quickly. I think probably the key thing that we… that I would have changed is I think… because we work with government when we talked that SATV concept we could absolutely see what it was going to do, and we went to the government and said, “Hey, we want to do this, can you approve X amount of dollars to support it.” And of course at that time it was very much… COVID was really taking off and every piece of money that was around needed to go towards medical help and literally getting money in pockets.
Brent Hill: So it looked a little tone deaf when I asked that question. So if I had my time over I would have gone in there and said, “Look, we can just do this from our own resources which is what we’ve ended up doing. Without any paid media just let us get it up and running to help our industry so that they could see the proof of concept.”
Mark Jones: Yeah, it’s a really good point, speed is everything, right? Hey I also wanted to ask about the partnership you might have with Tourism Australia, and clearly their focus is going to come right around a domestic because we’re not getting on international planes for quite some time. What opportunities do you see there?
Brent Hill: Yeah, I think again with their leverage in terms of what they see, their team, the depth of their team, the agencies they work with, the innovation they come up with. I think it would be remiss of me not to try and tap into that. Susan Coghill from Tourism Australia (TA) is a great colleague, a great friend we touch base regularly. So as things are SATV she saw us doing that and said, “Well hang on, we would love to use that in an Australian context and we’ve been thinking of something like that” and of course I’m going to make everything that I’ve got available to them, because it makes sense, right? So if they wanted to borrow the virtual tip jar stuff, we would give it to them and much the same as they’ve produced some amazing content that we’ve repurposed as well.
Brent Hill: So I think from that perspective we will continue to work together. How they work in their domestic space has been interesting so far cause they’ve already been doing it off the back of the bush fires, and I’m sure that they would prefer to be working internationally, but they’ve got deep pockets as well which is going to be helpful. So I think incentivizing Australians to travel within Australia it makes sense having Tourism Australia involved there.
Mark Jones: No doubt you’ve got this fun competition with all the other state departments of tourism, right? Cause it’s all about competing for… well I was going to say bums on seats, right? You want people to fly, they can’t do it anymore but they’re in their car. Do we need like a… this is me being a bit creative for a second, but do we need like a… the government has the national council where all the state premiers get together. Does there need to be like a TA hosting yourself and all the other state tourism organisations, to figure out how we’re going to divide and conquer and make sure that you get a good spread around the country?
Brent Hill: Yeah. Well, the good news Mark is that happens and yeah it’s definitely a friendly rivalry. I mean we respect what each other is doing and we try and collaborate where we can. So we have what we call the ‘One Voice Initiative’. So there are definitely some things that we all come together on. I mean it doesn’t make any sense for us to be smashing each other in the digital space for example, or trying to outdo each other in some of those spaces where it’s better to collaborate, and also it makes sense that as things do start to open up… If Tourism Australia are talking to New Zealand for example and talking about aviation, it makes sense that we’re all in that collectively because the power of the whole of Australia coming together is significantly more than if I just went over there saying, “Hey, I want those flights to reopen to South Australia.
Mark Jones: Looking ahead what impact do you think just having Qantas flying domestic routes will have particularly for you? I know that Virgin’s being obviously huge for Queensland and Victoria, what about South Australia?
Brent Hill: Yeah, and for us too. I think…
Mark Jones: Yeah.
Brent Hill: They’re both fantastic partners of ours. I think… I feel like this is… to quote Paul Keating, it’s the administration they had to have. I think it gives them a bit of a restructuring opportunity, they can… they were in a trading hole. If they came out of that they would got smashed in terms of their share. So it was better to actually go into administration that gives them the opportunity to recast the business. My understanding is they’ve got up to 10 conglomerates that are looking at them. Look, we need Virgin, we need Virgin for our tourism industry that’s a fact, they’re fantastic partners of ours. They’re great for the leisure traveller in particular, so it works really well for us that they do a lot of flights into Adelaide. I think it’s really important, I think if we went back to just a single carrier… I think even Qantas would agree that it doesn’t necessarily push you with your innovation and your pricing and so on, and I don’t think it will help our industry. I think our industry to recover needs both.
Mark Jones: Yeah. Well, I appreciate your time today it’s been fantastic. Maybe just in closing, what’s your advice for marketers out there? I know plenty have been pulling back at a time like this. My personal view is it’s actually the best time to invest when people are open to looking at your message, what would your tips be?
Brent Hill: Yeah, absolutely. I think so… I think the key thing with that is that marketing is often seen as an expense so that’s yanked first and the key thing that I would say is use all of the tools and mechanisms and audience that you have built up already. So if you’ve got a database, use your database. If you’ve got a social media following, use your social media following. If you’ve got a big website presence and you’ve had this big data like that you’ve been compiling, now is the time to be using that. So there’s actually a tonne of stuff you can do without actually spending a huge amount and then you’ve got the opportunity to sort of build that sort of proof of concept to say, “Hey, people are still looking to us for information and we’re still got a role to play,” and then you can continue to innovate and so on as well to keep your brand out there. But it does give you the opportunity as well that there’s a couple of things that you can sort of go, “Well, they were sort of struggling anyway, so we can cut those off and streamline a little bit and get better and tougher to come out the other side.”
Brent Hill: So I would say, “Look, hang in there.” And then when you get to that question in an interview down the track and they say, “What’s the toughest time you faced in your career?” Well, you know now what’s that’s going to be.
Mark Jones: Yeah, we do need these trials as much as we don’t like them or want them. There are other times when we’re pushed and we grow a lot. So it kind of takes the presence of mind to be able to focus on that and make stuff happen, but nevertheless it’s a good perspective. Well, Brent Hill executive director at marketing at SA Tourism Commission. I want to thank you so much for being my guest today.
Brent Hill: Thanks very much Mark. I really appreciate it.
Mark Jones: So that was Brent Hill I hope he got a lot out of it I did, and it’s just amazing to see how creative he’s getting when it comes to collaborating with people within his team and more broadly of course, and I’m going to be particularly interested to see how things change in the months to come. As we all know, we’re starting to head into a season where some of the isolation and the related restrictions from the government are starting to open up a little.
Mark Jones: So maybe that’s going to start to promote a little bit more collaboration across the states when it comes to tourism for example too. But I wanted to call out one particular thing and it’s this idea that when your main capability has been hindered by COVID-19, in this case being able to travel or if you’re in business interstate being able to sell the services that you normally provide. Isn’t it interesting to think about how people are repurposing their assets or if you’ve got delivery track maybe I’m using that for something else to help the community, Mark Jones: So I’m just encouraged to see those sorts of things happening here in Australia. Now, last thing we’d love it if you’d give us a rating on Apple Podcasts. We know you’ve shared it and you’ve subscribed everywhere, but do jump in there and give us a rating, write a comment. It’d be great if we can continue to share the love, as it were, with the marketing community. So that’s it for this time on The CMO Show, as always it’s been great to have you with us and we’ll see you next time.