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Between the inspiring blog posts, vox pop videos, educational whitepapers and everything else, marketers have lost focus on driving revenue through their content strategy – at least that’s what Andrew Davis thinks. 

What does 2017 hold in store? How is content marketing changing? Why does it even matter any more? In the last episode of The CMO Show for 2016, Mark and JV sit down with bestselling author and content marketing legend, Andrew Davis, to discuss all things content marketing.

A firm believer in the power of content marketing to change the outlook of an entire product or category, rather than a single brand, Andrew reckons it’s the way marketers target content that will matter most in the coming year.

“A lot of people think that, ‘If we just do this slow slog of blog posts and email newsletters we’ll eventually find our golden ticket’. When, in fact, I think if you’re just smarter about the audience you’re targeting and grow down the tree from the small branches that have highly passionate, high margin, potential audiences to go after, you eventually get to the trunk where everybody knows you.”

The CEO of Monumental Shift, Andrew watches today’s marketers trying to target every identified persona, spreading their budgets far and thin across each new channel. “In the online world we have this belief we should target everyone when, in fact, targeting everyone reaches no one. It’s a terrible paradox,” he says.

Tune in for an episode full of insight from the content marketing oracle himself. Listen along as Andrew shares stories of marketing hits and misses, and explains why less content leaves room for better quality. We’re rounding out the year with a bang.

Listen to the podcast above and subscribe on iTunes and SoundCloud.



The CMO Show production team

Producers – Megan Wright & Tom van Leeuwen

Audio Engineer – Jonny McNee

Design Manager – Daniel Marr

Got an idea for an upcoming episode or want to be a guest on The CMO Show? We’d love to hear from you:



Mark Jones (MJ)

Jeanne-Vida Douglas (JVD)
Andrew Davis (AD)

MJ: Thanks for joining us on the CMO Show, our special guest this week is Andrew Davis, Content Marketing… I want to say expert extraordinaire…

JVD: You don’t want to say guru, that’s all!

MJ: Oh, no, I don’t! How would you describe yourself, Andrew?

D: Oh, man, I would… Oh, that’s a tough one. I consider myself a former television producer who likes to tell stories that sells stuff.

MJ: Today we wanted to talk about successful content marketing, and I guess this is, if you like, an enduring topic, what makes successful content marketing? Look, there’s probably lots of different ways, but just for the sake of people who are, if you like, still getting their heads around what content marketing is; let’s just quickly cover that and then we’ll dive into some other topics. What do you think?

AD: Oh, sure. Well, I consider content marketing any kind of content that’s designed to increase demand for the products and services you sell. Not increase awareness, that’s the difference for me.

JVD: Mm-hm.

AD: So anything that’s designed to rise the tide for the entire market for whatever you sell, instead of, you know, rising the tide for the brand of whatever you sell, is how I consider content marketing.

JVD: I think the thing I find fascinating is you have a really interesting take on our ability to measure the effectiveness of content marketing.

AD: Marketers have this unbelievable and uncanny ability to actually inspire people to buy the thing that they sell, at it’s very core. There are great ways to measure that. There are very simple ways, you can use things like Google Trends, which is one of my favourite tools on the planet, to actually chart and measure how a market moves; and then you can actually measure your impact on the market. Even at a very granular level, I think marketers have a real problem understanding the difference between reporting on the right things and measuring the right things. At the end of the day it boils down to kind of making very simple assumptions.

Assumption number one is that you can actually create marketing that affects the revenue, so you’ve got to start measuring revenue. Even simple things like revenue per subscriber or revenue per post. Those are the kind of things your C-Level executives want you to report on, not the number of likes or fans or followers or friends you got this week on a blog post, you know, you pushed out into the ether.

JVD: Have we got a little bit lost down that rabbit hole of sort of reporting on what we’re already measuring rather than trying to map it back to revenue?

AD: Yeah, I think… Look, it’s really easy to get lost in that rabbit hole. I mean, I get lost in that rabbit hole. You can very easily compile a 10 page report that shows all of the things you’ve done, and even pokes at the impact it’s had, but I think you’re doing yourself a real disservice if you aren’t wondering “How I can tie this to revenue?” If you start with a really simple assumption, like every blog post I post is making an impact on the revenue we generate, then you actually start reporting on the right things even though you still have to measure a lot of those things we’re talking about.

MJ: So the challenge comes for a lot of companies, if you can’t see a direct correlation between the blog post and revenue. Let’s, for example, say that you use a retail channel so your job is actually to create demand in the marketplace but you’re not directly selling the product, you don’t have that connection. That’s a common problem for a lot of companies, so how do you bridge that divide?

AD: Yeah, I think you have to kind of extrapolate your ability to drive demand in the market place. A really good example of that is an Australian brand called Breville. You guys know that brand pretty well.

MJ: Mm-hm.

JVD: Toasted sandwiches, yep.

AD: Yeah, yeah, the pressed sandwich people. The Breville sandwiches. They basically realised that the demand for juicers, you know, the plug-in juicer where you put in an apple and out comes apple juice.

JVD: Yep.

AD: They realised the demand for juicers was the same every single year and the spikes happened at the same times every single year.

What they decided to do was create a documentary film about a guy, an Australian guy named Joe Cross, who juices his way across the United States. The goal of that movie isn’t to sell Breville juicers, the goal of that movie is to inspire 40 year old men like me who feel like their body’s changing and you know, they can’t metabolise food like they used to and now I’ve got a big, fat belly and I’m not feeling that healthy. It was to inspire that specific demographic to go out and buy a juicer. To increase the size of the market for juicing. It worked tremendously well, so they can attribute, directly can attribute, that the release of “Fat, Sick and Nearly Dead” to doubling and even tripling of the size of the market for juicers over the course of the last three years.

JVD: So the mistaken assumption is we need to tug at existing audiences, as opposed to “Who’s not buying our product and how do we get into their head?”

AD: I think in the online world we have this belief we should target everyone when, in fact, targeting everyone reaches no-one, really. It’s a terrible paradox, but I think we’ve really got to get past the idea that we can’t target in very, very smart ways. In the online world we have this unbelievable power to dive deep into an audience. I call it fractal marketing, so, if you just take the audience you’re going after and you divide and sub-divide your audience constantly, you’ll actually find a new audience that you never knew you could probably address. It’s probably never been addressed by any major brand, and they’ve probably never thought of buying your product. You can increase the size of the market almost instantly by just creating content that speaks to that specific audience. It’s a really powerful, simple approach to showing and measuring an impact in a very easy way, even if you don’t control the point of purchase.

JVD: We’ve already got two big challenges now you’re proposing for the marketing team, and that is, one, to say “Yes, we do impact revenue, we can produce an ROI document based on overall revenues; Now you’re saying “Let’s not just focus on the existing audience, let’s find people who aren’t buying our products.” That totally changes the way you design, or aren’t buying within this category. That totally changes the way you design personas, like we’re back to 101 here.

AD: Yeah, well, you know, the tactics end up being the same. Once you’ve identified a fertile ground, a new market that hasn’t been addressed before by you, creating a persona for that market and then doing exactly what you would do for a broad audience or the existing audience is a really simple way to actually create the right kind of content for that audience. It’s so easy, and it has such an immediate impact. I think one of the big objections to content marketing that I hear, is that it’s a long game, you know, like “We’re going to have to invest in this for 12 or 18 months before we start seeing an impact.” I’ve just never found that to be the case. Fat, Sick and Nearly Dead is a great example of that, they released the movie like on a Wednesday in the middle of July in the US on Netflix, and by the following Monday they were sold out of juicers at most of the retailers in most of the major metropolitan areas in the United States.

MJ: Yeah, but in that case, it’s taken them 12 months or more to actually produce the film, right? So…

AD: That’s true, that’s true.

JVD: And that’s on Netflix, it’s a big deal for Netflix.

MJ: The actual lag time from conception through to Netflix is, who knows? Two years?

AD: For sure, but… That’s true, it may be even more than that, I can’t remember. At the end of the day the impact the content has is instant. A lot of people… I mean, I really believe that if we just see the slow slog of blog posts and email newsletters we’ll eventually find our golden ticket. When, in fact, I think if you’re just smarter about the audience you’re targeting and grow down the tree from the small branches that have highly passionate, high margin, potential audiences to go after, you eventually get to the trunk where everybody knows you and you’re selling lots and lots of stuff more often.

JVD: The other thing that strikes me about being really targeted with messaging is we kind of have this need to show that we’re doing something all year round, whereas if we can focus in on buying cycles and target specific audiences at times that they are considering purchases, or would be considering purchases, it then becomes difficult to say what you’re doing for the other six months. How do we kind of bring that together and do we need to continue that background kind of brand awareness work while we’re still kind of focusing in on these niche audiences at trigger points in their buying cycle, or in their customer journey?

AD: Yeah, well, let’s talk about two different aspects of this. I think a really important part of where content marketing can make a huge impact is in fostering the relationship with your existing clients and customers, and so every time you target and win a new niche you need to have an ongoing strategy that’s really designed to foster that relationship, up-sell or cross-sell those clients; or, at least, help those customers and clients find your next customer and client.

JVD: Become advocates, yeah.

AD: Yeah. I call it the loyalty loop. The first thing you’ve got to be able to do is to actually generate a really quality program for the people that are in your loyalty loop, the people that just signed up today, or just bought your product today, and the people that have been customers for three or four years. That’s where you’ll actually find your next niche audience. I always kind of preach that you’ve got to start with your loyalty loop, you have to go in… You know, even Breville didn’t just go out into the ether and say “Who shall we target next?” They looked at people who were juicing, talked to people who were juicing, and found a few 40 year old men who said “Juicing has reinvigorated a healthy lifestyle for me.” That was the new niche, those people were already juicing, they already bought Breville juicers, they were already in a loyalty loop, they just weren’t being spoken to directly.

MJ: What I like about this, and I think it does get overlooked in a lot of marketing tactics discussions about how we do the thing… This is actually a big vote for a very old school idea in marketing in advertising land, is it’s called research. You know…

AD: I’m sorry, what was that?

MJ: Yeah, research. Yeah, yeah. It’s called strategy, it’s called planning, you know, it’s really digging in at the front end because there’s such a strong focus on execution and results in terms of the mentality. If you don’t get that first bit right, as you say, and it’s a really great example about discovering the 40 year old men in the sea of Breville customers, right? Then all the data that goes into understanding why that could potentially be a gold mine for you in terms of your strategy, like that’s… So it’s a really great reminder. You know, don’t forget the first thing, right?

AD: I think, Mark, you bring up a great point. I actually think we need to stop doing a lot of the things that are burning our marketing energy, whether it’s dollars or resources or time, and actually spend some of that time reinvesting it in smarter research; so that the stuff you do execute has a much bigger impact. We really need to… I keep saying the hardest part of marketing today is trying to figure out what to stop doing so you can start doing something that has a bigger impact. I do think going all the way back to the research, like you’re saying, is a really simple approach to that. If you just gave up on one social media platform instead of trying to be on every platform for every one of your potential clients or customers out there, maybe it’s time you just dump one of them and forget about it and spend that time that you used to spend trying to figure out Pinterest on, you know, some research.

MJ: Yeah. That’s awesome. Hey, I want to talk about another big topic, and this is a point of fascination for me right now, and it’s the future of SEO, and organic reach. The way that I’ll set this up is, we know that over time your organic reach in Facebook is trending towards zero, the alarming thing for me is that in Google… so, Google search… The organic listings is trending towards zero, as well. Essentially it’s pay to play and that, I think, is going to have a lasting impact on content marketing. We’re only just at the beginning, sort of the leading edge of that, so I’m interested in your perspective on… This is like a really big can of worms, but how are you thinking about this?

AD: Well, number one, it is a really troubling and a huge shift in the marketing mindset. Not just for content marketers, by the way, I think for SEO experts, for everyone in the marketing space. Here’s how I look at it, I don’t think, and I’ve never thought, that buying ads shouldn’t be part of a great content marketing program. In fact, I’ve always preached that if you start with your loyalty loop, customers… If you’re going to create some content make sure it works for your existing customers and clients first, before you share it with the world. The next step should be leveraging those owned audiences in the social media world, so your existing fans and followers and friends in the social world. That’s at the point at which you need to determine if it’s worth investing in advertising to move the needle further for that kind of content. Have you really understood who’s consuming it? Is it the kind of content that you think is worth investing in?

I actually think PR now fits at the end of that cycle where you’ve got a huge amount of social momentum, you know, everybody that you’ve emailed has consumed it, everybody in the social world has consumed if they could. You’ve paid to access a new audience who’s consumed it and liked it; and now it’s time to share it with some PR folks, the media, to say “Look, this has social proof, 5,000 or 50,000 people have already consumed this and they love it. Would you like to cover this story because I think it’s worth covering, and you’re the right people to take it to the next level.” So, you know, I do think that we’re going to have to pay more and more to access new audiences, and I actually think to get to… To even go back to your research point, we need to start leveraging our loyalty loop and our social channels as the testing and proving ground for the stuff that we should invest in on that next phase, on the buy phase.

MJ: Yeah, right.

MJ: What fascinates me about this kind of trend to zero from an organic perspective is, sort of in that context, is how do we measure quality? What’s the value of quality? This is kind of almost like a ethics conversation, but I think it’s really important, right? You could very easily have the definitive 5,000 word article on what is content marketing, hypothetically, a really hugely kind of competitive search term… You might have paid to play and to make sure that your definitive article is the number one, it might actually be just, quite frankly, the worst article quality wise. It could be crap. It could actually be wrong. It could be flying in the face of everything that the entire body of thinkers in this space has ever thought, but you’ve paid to make sure it’s number one; and you continue to pay and you try and effectively steer the conversation.

AD: Sure.

MJ: Essentially the whole system is gamed, and I don’t know what the answer is.

JVD: You know, if Google gets too gamed, if Google allows itself to be gamed, and that’s why the algorithms are constantly evolving in order to stay ahead of the way we’re all trying to game, because that’s what we’re doing, effectively…

MJ: Yeah.

JVD: Then there will be a couple of kids in a garage right now, that are designing a better system that will respond better to organic searches and… You know what I mean, they…

MJ: Right, the next Google, you think?

JVD: The next Google is currently being designed and maybe that’s it, maybe we’ll have an organic Google and then a not.

MJ: What do you think, Andrew?

AD: You know what, they do exist. I actually think that this is a balance that the media in general has tried to strike forever, right? Like how many ads is too many ads? How do we make an advertorial look like an advertorial? Is an infomercial on television okay as long as it says ‘This is an infomercial’ at the beginning? Yes, it’s okay. I don’t think this debate is going away, but I do think, JV, you’re right, at the end of the day the market’s going to decide how much crap is too much crap, right?

AD: I think the best marketers are great big sceptics. They’re constantly challenging the information and insight they get from other people. I was at an event a week ago and somebody was doing an SEO presentation, and they showed some evidence that you should be buying more and more ads on Google. The first thing that I questioned was the source of this stat was Google itself, right? Like…

MJ: Dah!

AD: Yeah, exactly! I think we just take too much of this for granted and just say “Well, this is the best practice, this is what I’m supposed to do. I guess I should buy ads on Google.” I actually think… I see lots of people wasting huge amounts of money on search terms and key-words that they don’t need, and on audiences that won’t care. I see it in social networks, as well. I think people are going to get smarter and be… The smartest ones are going to challenge everything they learn and really think through it strategically.

JVD: Has this given us a lovely loop where they’re doing that because they’re not tracking it back to revenue?

AD: That’s the point!

JVD: Aha!

MJ: You just gave that to him. Just “Here you go,” you know.

AD: Let me tell you, when I ran an agency, my easiest target for any client, I would just look up how much they were spending on Google ad words every month, then I’d look at the Google ad words they were buying; then I’d essentially walk into their office and say “It looks like you’re spending $25,000 a month on this one key-word, how about you give me half of that every month and I’ll give you a long lasting asset that will actually drive revenue?”

JVD: Mm-hm.

AD: It was a pretty easy sale.

JVD: Mm-hm.

AD: All of those people were just buying those ads because someone had told them to buy those ads.

MJ: Well, the dominant narrative is there are two networks that count, or two social… You know, it’s Facebook…

JVD: Mm-hm.

AD: Facebook and Google.

MJ: …and Google, right?

AD: Yeah, right.

MJ: I think you once had a… Either it was you or Joe Pulizzi had a thing with, you know, we think that the centre of the world is our blog but in fact it’s Google, or Facebook, right?

AD: Yeah, yeah.

MJ: So that is the dominant narrative that we’re talking about. What’s your starting point for being a successful content marketer is that you know that you have to be in those places, and I think it’s, sort of to build on this, is to say “Well, actually, it might be, but it might also not.”

JVD: And it might not be forever. Things will change.

AD: Well I… I think that’s totally true. I’ve said for a long time that Google is the centre of the universe, it’s the sun in the Galilean model of the universe. But here’s the thing, I actually think one thing that’s not going away, and has a very tight grip on a huge amount of the world’s population, is email. Email is unbelievably close to the centre of everybody’s every day experience. The smartest marketers I know are making a huge impact by just getting better and better at delivering the right kind of content into people’s inbox every single day.

JVD: That silent slam you just heard was my head hitting the desk. Please don’t tell me this, Andrew,

MJ: She’s been wishing it to die for a long time. She’s like “Must I?”

JVD: And it’s just…

MJ: But I’m going to agree with Andrew, because…

JVD: You’ve always loved email!

MJ: No, I don’t, no. Here’s the difference, actually, I don’t love email…

JVD: Well, actually, Mark and I try to outdo each other to see how many unread emails we have.

MJ: I’m currently winning.

JVD: Tell us why email is so fundamentally valuable.

AD: I think when done right it’s unbelievably valuable; so if you can make an appointment with the audience it actually delivers something on a regular basis where they start to expect a format and piece of content… It’s one of the easiest ways to really build a relationship with someone that’s trusted. Number two, it has to come from a person; so I mean… Mark, you’re right, like I get tonnes and tonnes of emails from, I don’t read that stuff and it goes straight to spam or delete, right? But, I do get stuff from people that I really care about, that’s thoughtful, well-written and does add value to my life as a leader or a speaker or a writer or whatever it is. That stuff I do consume, and the best stuff is done in a really, really smart way. Meaning I fall in love with the format of the content just as much as I do the content itself.

I think the brands that do those three things really deliver something unique that others struggle to aspire to, even, and end up being the spam and junk in my inbox.

MJ: Yep, there it is. The other thing that I think… The other reason why email is enduring is what connects all of your social networks?

AD: Yeah, email, right?

MJ: Right. What gives you access to anything online?

AD: Email.

MJ: Email and a password, right? It’s kind of like the cornerstone of online life, right? Multiple emails, by the way, it doesn’t have to be just one. We all… Most of us manage multiple personal emails, but it’s just not… I think it’s actually… Can there please be one constant in life? You know?

AD: Yeah, right. You know what’s funny? The same principles, if you master the principles that work in email, the same principles work on any social media platform.

JVD: Yep.

AD: Do you guys know Joe Kalinowski from Content Marketing Institute? He’s their Creative Director.

MJ: No, I don’t.

AD: He’s a great guy, and every Friday he posts the same formatted post, every single Friday and number one it’s the most liked post he ever posts, every single week. It’s the most commented on post he posts every single week. It’s always a black and white picture of him holding a word, and it’s kind of his reflection on the week. That is exactly what works in email. The same kind of thing. Like I come to expect that every Friday morning, and when it’s not there I actually am so cognisant of it now, that I panic and think “Something must have happened to JK, I hope he’s okay.”

JVD: It’s super-predictable, it’s easy to consume, it’s enjoyable, it’s relevant.

AD: And it’s formatted, it’s like I… As soon as I see that black and white picture with him holding up a word I’m like “Oh, it must be Friday.” Sometimes I don’t even know what day of the week it is; he tells me with his content. The same kind of thing works on Snapchat; Jay Acunzo who’s the host of Unthinkable, a great podcast, he does these Snap Classes on Snapchat; and basically once a week he does like 10 snaps in a row, to teach you something. It’s really well done, but people love them, and every Friday they expect these Snap Classes. Yes, it works in email and I think if you master email you can take the same format and use it almost anywhere. Do you guys know the Bart’s Fish Tale guy? From… I think he’s from Denmark. No, he’s from Holland.

JVD: Oh, yes, yes, yes.

AD: Yeah. That guy…

JVD: The cooking show guy.

AD: The cooking show, he just is…

JVD: Oh, he’s just amazing!

AD: On Instagram he did the world’s shortest cooking show, and it was a fish cooking show every single Friday, 15 seconds long. He garnered this huge following of basically, you know, Dutch people, who wanted to cook every Friday and cook fish. Then they started buying fish at the fish market, whatever he said; so this Friday’s recipe would be scallops, everybody would go to the grocery store and buy scallops on Friday. He started this in 2013, and that’s all he posted. One post a week, every Friday, Fishy Friday he called it, and it was Bart’s Fish Tales. Now, in 2015, he launched his own packaged fish products that are sustainably harvested, and he drove 20 million dollars in revenue in the first year, and he spent zero dollars on advertising. All he has is an appointment with an audience on Instagram every Friday, that’s it.

MJ: What was the lag time between idea and 20 million bucks?

AD: Two years.

MJ: Okay, that’s pretty good.

JVD: Mm-hm. Mm-hm. At the core of that is excellent storytelling. It’s something that’s really relevant, really engaging.

AD: Amazing storytelling.

JVD: It’s beautiful to watch, it really is.

AD: You have to watch them! He’s so charismatic. You fall in love with Bart’s Fish Tales. Like you just want to hug him and eat his fish.

MJ: Sounds fishy to me, sorry.

JVD: Aw, dad joke, dad joke!

AD: Aww, man.

MJ: I had to go there!

AD: I was floundering for a good…

JVD: Oh, no! Don’t do this to me!

MJ: That’s right, collectively the scales have fallen from our eyes.

AD: Oh! This is bad!

MJ: Okay, I’ll stop now. Quick, new topic.

JVD: First you tell me that I’m not going to get rid of email anytime soon and then you guys go off onto some dad joke tangent. I’m going to be curled up in foetal position in…

MJ: I just knew this show was going to be fun.

JVD: Let’s have some more fun and skip over to 21 questions.

MJ: What are you grateful for?

AD: I am grateful for my wife and her patience.

JVD: Do you like rain?

AD: I love rain. I like the pitter patter of the rain on a tin roof.

MJ: In the movie of your life, who would play you?

AD: Oh, Anthony Michael Hall.

JVD: What’s your greatest career fail?

AD: My greatest career fail… Oh, man, it’s just being an actor. I wanted to be… I was a childhood actor and I thought I was going to be the next Leonardo DiCaprio when I was a kid. I was a terrible actor, it was miserable.

MJ: Beach or mountain?

AD: Beach, for sure.

JVD: Best ever career advice?

AD: Hire slow, fire fast.

MJ: Summer or winter?

AD: Summer.

JVD: Who is your hero?

AD: My hero. I would… Oh, my Lord, I think… Does everybody just say their mum? I would have to say my mum.

JVD: Lots of people say their parents.

MJ: Mother or father, yeah.

AD: Yeah, yeah. Let me think of a better one than that. Can we come back? Pass!

MJ: If you weren’t a marketer you’d be a…?

AD: If I wasn’t a marketer I’d be a radio DJ “Hey, you’re listening to…”

MJ: Aah, you’d be so good!

JVD: Chocolate or strawberry?

AD: Chocolate.

MJ: What did you have for breakfast?

AD: Oh, I had pumpkin, like a pumpkin bread, and a bagel with veggie cream cheese.

MJ: Awesome.

JVD: What would you rather have had?

AD: That’s a great question! You guys are awesome. I would have rather had a breakfast buffet at the Ritz.

MJ: Yeah, very nice. For me it’s always bacon, but anyway…

AD: That’s at the buffet. That’s at the buffet, Mark.

MJ: There you go, there you go. This is not about me. The last conversation with your parents?

AD: Last conversation with my parents was on Sunday.

MJ: Yeah, what did you talk about?

AD: Oh, what did we talk about? My mum has written a book called Whitewashed Jacarandas, and she had a book event at a small town in Oregon and she… It went really, really well so we spent most of the time hearing about all the people she met.

JVD: Scrunch or fold?

AD: Fold, I’m definitely… I’m kind of anal like that. Definitely.

MJ: Yeah, that always… We’ve had some people just pass, and like “What do you even ask me that for?” Anyway… Like it’s offensive or something, you know. “How dare you?” Anyway, if you could change one thing about the marketing industry, what would it be? Apart from scrunching or folding.

AD: If I could change one thing about the marketing industry it would be to focus on telling great stories instead of getting hung up on tactics constantly.
JVD: Mm-hm.

MJ: Yeah, great.

JVD: Can you ride a bike?

AD: Yes!
MJ: What’s your greatest frustration?

AD: Oh, my greatest frustration… I call it brand detachment disorder, I actually learned about it from Carla Johnson, but it’s this idea when you give someone an example or tell someone a great story, marketing story specifically, their immediate response is “That’s great, it might work for Breville, or it might work for a guy that sells fish, but I sell air conditioners, it will never work for me.” It’s this idea that you can’t extract a lesson on your own from something that you see in the market place, you can’t connect your own dots.

MJ: I love that, that’s super insightful.

JVD: Touch, taste, sight, hearing or smell… Which would you sacrifice to save the rest?

AD: Um, touch, taste, hearing or smell. I think smell.

MJ: Dogs or cats?

AD: Dogs! I have two Shih Tzus.

MJ: Nice, the swearing dog.

AD: I know, right?

JVD: What’s your favourite book?

AD: Think Big Start Small. It’s actually a weird book that’s hard to find by a guy who started a furniture company, a furniture store in Houston, Texas. It’s just a really great story.

MJ: If you had to change your name, your first name, what would you change it to?

AD: Michael. Andrew is a terrible name and Michael is such a better name.

MJ: Why? Just because it’s cooler or…?

AD: Yes! Every Michael I’ve ever known has been cool.

MJ: That’s true.

JVD: I love the way you didn’t miss a beat, you just immediately knew what else you wanted to be called.

MJ: Yeah, yeah, it’s like “I got this.”

AD: You know what, some mornings I wake up going “Man, I should have been a Michael.”

JVD: Andrew Davis, thank you so much for coming on the show. This has been such an interesting conversation, and we’ve got… I think it’s going to be our longest ever list of links at like the show notes. We’ve just go so much to add so that people can go away and investigate everything you’ve spoken about. So, yeah, thank you for joining us.

AD: That’s so nice, but thank you.

MJ: It is possible to have this much fun on a marketing podcast.

AD: This is great.

MJ: It’s actually this… It can be done.

AD: Well, if you guys ever want me back I’d love to do it. This has been really so much fun and it’s been a real pleasure, so thanks again.

MJ: Well, how about we take you up on that sometime in the new year? I’d love to catch up.

AD: Let’s do it! I’d love to.

MJ: Absolutely.

JVD: Excellent.

MJ: Good on you. Thanks very much and we’ll talk to you soon.

AD: Thanks guys.

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