Jane Power, former Chief Customer and Marketing Officer for Bupa Australia and New Zealand talks to host Mark Jones about sales and marketing collaboration, long-term value creation, and compelling storytelling.
For marketers, our primary challenge is to discover what is the value that will be most appreciated by our brand, our consumers and our stakeholders. But how do you shape value in a way that creates longevity and raises brand awareness?
Jane Power, former Chief Customer and Marketing Officer for Bupa Australia and New Zealand, says the trick is partnering with sales.
“Marketing’s role when you really break it down is to fill your pond with as many fish as possible. And then sales activations role is to try and have a niche that you can catch as many fish as you possibly can. So you want to convert off the pond,” Jane explains.
In 2018, BUPA launched its “Life is a gift, take care of it” campaign. Jane says storytelling was an integral part in getting the message to connect with customers, both new and old.
“For me it’s probably the most important thing that we do because we’re not selling tubes of toothpaste. With selling services that are primarily delivered by people, how do you bring that to life? We find the best, most compelling way to do that is through stories that are usually told through our people or our customers,” she says.
So how do you make the most of your marketing and form long-lasting connections with your audience? Jane says you need to use every channel at your disposal.
“Your role [as a marketer] is to actually advocate for what is best for customers and then in turn, your brand over the long-term,” she says.
“It’s no point just having a fancy creative above the line campaign. You can’t do that week in, week out. You’ve got to use all the channels, everything at the device. And it needs to be integrated to get the best returns. Collaboration is what we talk about a lot and that’s collaboration within the marketing team as well as across the business.” Tune into this episode of The CMO Show to find out how marketing and sales teams can work together to create high-value, long-term results for a brand.
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Host: Mark Jones
Guest: Jane Power
Mark Jones: Value creation in marketing. Cultural value, business value, consumer value. If you think about those in a segmented pie, how do you shape it in such a way that you reflect the right value? I think as marketers, our challenge is what is the value that will be most appreciated by your brand, by your consumers, and then internally, because ultimately, that’s what’s going to last.
Mark Jones: Mark Jones here. The CMO Show is back. Thank you for joining us. This is a really interesting conversation about the future. And by that I mean long-termism versus short-termism. I’m just going to apologise right up front because I think in many episodes we’re going to be talking about this issue.
Mark Jones: My guest today is Jane Power, who’s Chief Marketing and Customer Officer for Australia and New Zealand at Bupa. She’s also the Global Head of Brand.
Mark Jones: It’s interesting to hear her explain how she’s really gone about partnering with sales, bringing in the marketing team, and then exploring this broader idea of value in a long term context. it’s a really great conversation and I know that you’re going to learn a lot from Jane Power.
Mark Jones: Jane Power. She is the Chief Marketing and Customer Officer at Bupa Australia New Zealand. Thank you so much for joining us.
Jane Power: Thank you Mark, for having me along. Great to be here.
Mark Jones: For those of you who don’t know, Bupa is actually pretty big. 32 million or more customers, 190 countries around the world represented. Started in the UK. Here in Australia, around about 4 million customers, I understand.
Mark Jones: And spanning aged care, health care, health insurance, and I’m sure you’re going to tell us other things as well. Right? Anything you don’t do. A pretty big deal. Let’s just get into this from the brand perspective, because you’re the custodian of this brand worldwide. What does that mean?
Jane Power: At Bupa, we run what we call a federated model so each local market has their own brand strategy, their own marketing strategy. It’s very much a federated model. Locally, our brand strategy is centred around what we call a care platform, and we came about that through… Hopefully, as all good marketers do, start very much with the customer in mind and did extensive research with customers to talk about what really resonated with them. The central theme around what they actually look for, from Bupa was all centred around care.
Jane Power: And interesting, whether that was insurance, which you could argue is quite a rational commoditised, or more and more commoditised product, through to what’s very obviously centred around care, which is our aged care business. But care ran through everything that we do. That’s really how we launched health and care, which is how we think about our business. We don’t think about it as an insurance business, we think about ourselves as a health and care company. We see health insurance, which is obviously a huge part of what we do, as enabling care for customers.
Mark Jones: Yeah. I think that’s an important distinction. I was going to ask, from a global perspective, how do you get everybody around that idea? Is it something that you imposed internally?
Jane Power: No, not at all. Each of our businesses, each of our market units, we call them, are incredibly different. Australia through the history, which is acquiring a number of consumer businesses in this market, we’re the largest consumer business. So obviously things like brand is incredibly important locally. In the UK, however, it’s much more of a B2B type business. It’s grown up through a much stronger corporate B2B type footprint.
Jane Power: But interestingly, as I learnt, we were talking earlier about recent trip I just did in London where we’ve had all of our businesses together, I had the opportunity to talk to them about brand.
Mark Jones: Yes, this is a great story.
Jane Power: And well, interestingly, the UK business had this fabulous lady who ran wellbeing from HSBC globally, and so we brought a customer into the room, which I always love doing that. She gave us some really direct, sometimes quite confronting feedback. But what she talked about, is, yes, she gets… That Bupa in the UK is an insurance company, and she gets that she’s buying insurance. But it’s not what she’s really buying. What she is looking for is health and wellbeing. And so what she’s looking to buy is health and wellbeing for the 250,000 employees. She talked about how her CEO had put health and wellbeing of his employees as his number one priority.
Mark Jones: So you’re an enabler for an outcome?
Jane Power: That’s exactly right. It really made you think differently about, what business are we in? And my challenge always to the business folk is, you’ve actually got to think differently about what it is you’re selling. People are wanting to buy health and wellbeing. That’s what customers are demanding from us. Yes, we might be selling health insurance now, but in a world of disruptive approaches to insurance, that might not be what we’re selling in the future. We might be selling any number of payment vehicles. So I just see, you’ve got to be really clear on what it is that people want to buy from you, and then how do you enable that through different vehicles.
Mark Jones: As the custodian of the Bupa brand, in that context, how do you make sure that you can grow and maintain the health of… Excuse the Pun, but the health of that idea, compared to the demands for sales and campaign activity, right? I imagine for many senior executives in the business around the world, those distinctions might get either blurred or misunderstood, or just overlooked completely. Does that make sense?
Jane Power: Look, absolutely. And I’m sure I’m probably not alone, what we face every day is this very challenging balance between knowing what you need to do for a business, which is grow long-term brand health and build a business that’s going to be here in 10 years not two years. How do you balance that with a reality that most of us are incentivised very short-term? That is always a massive source of friction, isn’t it? Between marketers and salespeople, traditionally. Because people are wanting leads and they want them now, and they’ve got KPIs to meet. We’re on the exact same hook for that. I mean, my KPIs are exactly the same as my business stakeholders, but I’ve also got to bring the cheques and balances into making sure what we do is accretive for the brand, and driving long-term brand health. It is the million dollar challenge that we all face, isn’t it?
Mark Jones: What’s your advice from the senior stakeholder perspective? We’ll get to the salespeople in a minute, but how do you engage that strategy level, and that brand health level is really what I’m getting at. Because it sounds like you’re helping really to direct the CEOs view of strategy.
Jane Power: Yes. I think that’s been really tough, and that’s probably why I was really thrilled with the latest Field & Binet research, because I do think it has been something that we’ve struggled to quantify in a really robust way. And I tell the story about as a marketer, you could be an absolute hero over the short-term and Ritzon’s talked about this, hasn’t he, at length. If all you did was digital marketing and you produced beautiful dashboards that made everything measurable, you could be an absolute hero, and then just disappear to another organisation and do the same thing for two years.
Mark Jones: Rinse and repeat.
Jane Power: But your role is to actually advocate for what is best for customers and then in turn, your brand over the long-term. It is challenging, but I think what that Field & Binet work has done, is for the first time, give data which is really what marketing has struggled to do, when it has come to brand metrics over the years.
Mark Jones: Can you give me an example of that?
Jane Power: The work they’ve done, which I’m sure, most of the audience will be aware, is they’ve looked at 600 brands worldwide, and they’ve looked at all of the sales and performance starter against spend and mix of spend and they’ve shown that against various different categories what that ideal mix needs to be. if we just take insurance for our business, if you think about that very much as a subscription type business, for businesses like subscription overall, your mix needs to be about 60% spending on brand and 40% spending on sales activation.
Jane Power: People can interpret that by saying that every single thing you do needs to have that mix. That’s not what it’s saying. It’s saying if you looked back on the year behind you, overall you need to be hitting that type of mix. I think that’s been quite a useful tool because it’s quite tangible and it’s quantified and it’s helped me certainly have, I think, much more robust conversations with the likes of CFOs, because there’s data that sits behind that now.
Mark Jones: How do you take that model and split it up across channels and geographies and all that stuff?
Jane Power: Yes. Well, that’s the trick and that’s something that we’re just facing into now. We just came out of this interesting conversation with my team this morning around. There’s going to be times that are, particularly in insurance for you set example that a peak sales activation periods of time where you want to be owning a space, be it through share of voice or your activity, because you know that at that point in time customers are ready to buy. So you need to be there to convert against that opportunity.
Jane Power: That is the time where your balance might be the opposite, but in other times you need to be in that, what we call emotional priming space, which is, I think about it in my language is around making sure that you’re giving customers a really strong reason why to consider Bupa. If you really simplify it down, what is really the role of brand marketing, it is to communicate the strong reason why.
Mark Jones: How do you distinguish that from brand awareness?
Jane Power: Brand awareness is an outcome of that, isn’t it? I wish we had a brand awareness problem because I think as a marketer it’s actually pretty easy to build brand awareness. There’s a bit of a playbook.
Mark Jones: Going back to a digital.
Jane Power: Well, yeah. I think we sit at 90% plus brand awareness. Our challenge at Bupa has been our awareness is for us as a health insurer, we have much lower brand awareness for us as a health and care company. And so what we know is that, when customers and non customers know the breadth of what we do, so when they know that we have a dental offering and an optical offering and we have a therapy service. When they I know that they actually feel much more favourably towards us as a health insurer, because it starts to talk about the Bupa difference which coming back to where we started is all centred around that care platform.
Mark Jones: Maybe we should go back to that for a minute because I think being able to have a master brand and yet distinguish these individual products and care platforms is the big thing. I wanted to have you on, because last year you had this whole messaging direction around, “Life is a gift, take care of it.” And this is long term thinking that you were quoted as saying at the time, it’s not a campaign but a company wide focus. Tell us about what it took to get to that, a sense of being able to sell in an execute, if you’re like a companywide messaging platform.
Jane Power: I see life as a gift as the tagline. That’s sort of the go to market line that we use right now. That may or may not be something we use forever. But what we’re very committed to is this what I call that brand platform, which is care and so-
Mark Jones: Well, sounds like you’ve evolved a bit.
Jane Power: Yes. I think we definitely have evolved. So internally we’re starting to think about it as connected care. We do that to think about how do we actually bubble up the fabulous propositions, services, stories and things that we do for our customers. How do we bubble that up and get better at telling stories about that as demonstration of care. Internally we call that connected care. Everything that we do needs to ladder up to this idea of connected care. Where that came from is, it can sound a bit conceptual, but when we talk to customers and if I look back on the five years I’ve been at Bupa, every piece of research I’ve ever looked at, what customers are screaming out for is help in actually navigating the health and care system.
Jane Power: You see it time and time again. It’s incredibly complex. This idea of connection we think is quite interesting. If you think about what’s happening in the marketplaces and the like, what’s that all about? Why are people using marketplaces, be it an Amazon or within an Apple environment, whatever it might be. It’s about ease of connection. I think that idea is really interesting for our space. I see that’s how we’re evolving, is starting to think about how do we better demonstrate connection for our customers, which is about ease and simplicity and value.
Mark Jones: There’s an interesting tension between wanting somebody to do your homework for you and also wanting to know that I’ve got choice that I can go and choose.
Jane Power: Yes.
Mark Jones: There’s an interesting sort of conundrum that you need to sort of wrestle with I guess.
Jane Power: Yes. That’s actually interesting because the campaign that we’ve just gone to market with this quarter was all about taking what we felt was the best proposition that our health insurance business had. Which I sort of felt was a little bit of best kept secret, which was all about the power of our network. That to your point is all about the insight that customers are all struggling with affordability. If we think about insurance, it’s an ongoing issue. They want more and more value for what they’re paying out. But to your point, they also want choice and options. And so we’ve gone to market with this idea around the network that we provide, which is all about, giving you lots of choice where it’s relevant to you at a time that’s relevant to you.
Jane Power: We use this beautiful analogy around penguins to talk about, you feel better when you’re part of something. So beautiful visuals.
Mark Jones: Part of a colony?
Jane Power: Yes. Part of this beautiful colonies. That’s how we’ve taken that idea of sort of care and connection to market this year, which is the evolution of where we started 18 months ago or so.
Mark Jones: Tell me about your view on the Australian public and how you present your messaging in a way that bridges the gap between cynicism and the reality. Because you don’t want to be in a case where you’re presenting this idea that we care and then people not believing you in certain categories. Right? How do you bridge the gap with messaging? What’s the mindset or the strategy that you bring to that?
Jane Power: I’m happy to talk about the elephant because it would be naive of me to not do so. We are saying that we are a health and care company and the care is at the heart of what we do. Yes, we’ve had some challenges in some of our homes. I think what we have to come back to is, we absolutely have got some things wrong and we are working incredibly hard to fix that. We also know that the majority of times we deliver amazing care for our residents and our customers. what always gets me out of bed is when I do come back and remind myself of this beautiful care that we give. I was watching a little video about a lady that we had in our Pottsville homes on the beaches.
Mark Jones: Where is that one?
Jane Power: Pottsville is in northern New South Wales and she was a world surfer, she’s close to 100 and she was one of the first female surfers at the time where you did not see women in the surf. She tells this beautiful story about how the blokes used to just do their best to run her over in the surf. It’s just beautiful story with the general manager of that home, walking down a beach and just so vibrant and living life cared for by our fabulous employees in the home. I always come back to knowing that our intent is to do the best for all of our residents all of the time. Absolutely. We get some things wrong, but we can’t shy away from that so I don’t want to shy away from talking about that.
Mark Jones: Yes. No, I agree. I think it really does get to this heart of what is an authentic story. So you’ve just painted a picture of a very authentic story, and people do connect to that. We were talking just before about the 60, 40 split and digital analytics, right? So we know that there’s a mechanical aspect to marketing. Describe how you use storytelling as a strategy.
Jane Power: We’re selling services that are primarily delivered by people. How do you bring that to life? We find the best, most compelling way to do that is through stories that are usually told through our people or through our customers. We have quite a new business, our Bupa therapy business, which is in Victoria. And that business is centred about helping people with quite complex therapy, Rehab type needs. Quite a hard thing, quite an emotional thing to try to describe and obviously quite a niche play be it.
Jane Power: We offer quite a broad range of services, but the most successful way that we’ve raised awareness around, a really small part of our business was through storytelling. And so we have the only particular rehab machine in Australia that helps people walk again. And we had this incredible story by a Melbourne rapper. He was called MC junior. He had a stroke, couldn’t walk. And five years on through the efforts, through him and the team in Bupa therapy, through rehab. He’s now not only walking, but he’s back performing, which is just the most incredible story. And so that for us was a incredibly authentic and real and heartfelt, which is, that the juice isn’t it?
Mark Jones: Yes.
Jane Power: When you’re talking about marketing, storytelling. But it also was a pretty effective way of raising brand awareness of one of our smaller parts about business that is never going to have the budgets and the lack of health insurance business. So we need to dig deep to bring these stories to life.
Mark Jones: I think with 4 million customers you’ve got to have untold numbers of stories. How do you set things up so that you can do that consistently? I’ve seen brand kind of fits and starts, right?
Jane Power: Yes.
Mark Jones: The challenge with storytelling and content marketing and other things is that, how do you do with a regular cadence, and how do you integrate it into your existing plans as part of an integrated marketing communications plan, as part of a brand plan, how do you just keep it up? What’s your approach to this?
Jane Power: It has been a big challenge, I certainly don’t think we’ve got it perfect as yet, but we reach out to our people for that. We have a mechanism where we have ways in which we effectively ask our team to bubble stories up through, a little marketing inboxes and things like that. We have a team that every time they’re in meetings with stakeholders, they’re asking for stories. What are those stories? And so we effectively build a pipeline now of those stories. And to your point consistency is key, right?
Mark Jones: Yes.
Jane Power: With content. We now are publishing stories every single week. It might be a written piece of content. It might be a video piece of content. It might be really deep, it might be a little soundbite, but you’re spot on, you’ve got to be really consistent. And so you’ve got to have this pipeline and mechanism to make sure that you’re identifying them in the first place.
Mark Jones: And while we’re talking tactics amplification is the name of the game at the moment as well, right?
Jane Power: Yes.
Mark Jones: It’s the tree falls in the forest. If you made this video, but no one sees it, what’s the point? What are you doing around that? How do you make sure that people get to see it?
Jane Power: We look for just about content for a minute. I mean, where we’ve been, and I think we’re many people have been, is you have to use paid amplification to get reach. We’ve done a lot of work to now get us in a position where we’re getting pretty amazing results through organic. But it took big capability build, I have to say in the team and great collaboration between the business to helping us with the stories and the content team, and the digital team to make sure that you had all the tech and the tagging and the bits that sit behind that.
Jane Power: Unfortunately, a lot of people jumped, I think onto that content bandwagon. Everyone was building content hubs and they were being produced by journalists. No disrespect to journalists. Like that’s you need to write great stories, but to your point, no one’s ever going to see them unless you get that technical piece right. And so that’s been a bit of a capability.
Mark Jones: You sound like you’re saying that, if you’ve matured as a whole marketing team to incorporate this into everything you’re doing, is that right?
Jane Power: Yes. That’s exactly right. What I’m always agitating for with the team is, it’s no point just having a fancy creative above the line campaign. You can’t do that week in, week out. You’ve got to use all channels, everything at the device. And it does need to be integrated to get the best returns. Collaboration is what we talk about a lot and that’s collaboration within the marketing team as well as across the business.
Mark Jones: Let’s go back to the short term versus long termism conversation. Tell me the story of the analogy or the metaphor that you used when you were speaking to the team in the UK. What happened there?
Jane Power: Oh, I thought I was done talking about fish but you’re going to make me talk about fish all over again. Look I had this great opportunity to run these little speed dating type sessions with the sales marketing and service communities across Bupa worldwide. The Field & Binet work had just come out and I thought this is just a great opportunity to get in front of a set of stakeholders that, traditionally there’s always been this tension between short and long term with sales teams. One fabulous lady in my London team came up with this idea around, “Well, let’s talk about fish Jane.” I was like, “Oh, here we go.” And really that was all about, what is marketing’s role? Marketing’s role when you really break it down is to fill your pond with as many fish as possible. And then sales activations role is to try and have a net that you can catch as many fish as you possibly can. So you want to convert off the pond. And so we use this analogy to show what… You can imagine the visuals of we’ll make this work in a podcast.
Jane Power: Imagine the visual of a picture of a pond that hasn’t got many fish in it. And you’ve got this sales guy with this big net trying to catch fish, but there’s not enough fish to catch. Now what does that lead to? Cranky salespeople, no one delivering on their KPI’s, right? And so that’s what happens when you’re not spending enough on brand building activity, you’ve got this big net because you’re spending all your money on sales activation, big net, not enough fish to catch. The flip of that is when you’re spending so much on brand building that you’ve got this pond with fish flying everywhere, but you’ve got this poor little guy with a hook trying to catch the fish one at a time. So you can imagine the visual with the net, with this little hook on it.
Jane Power: That’s when you’re spending too much on brand and not enough on sales activation. So your net isn’t big enough to catch and convert. They’re the extremes and within paint this picture of when you get that balance right, you’ve got a big fat full pond and you’ve got a net full of fish. Now that is marketing’s Nirvana and it’s sales, Nirvana, happy people, great, great business growth.
Mark Jones: So what does it look like practically, what’s the next stage?
Jane Power: This is fabulous. We spend a lot of time as I’m sure most of my peers do, talking about loyalty and retention and we would be the first to admit and we saw it the hard way I think last year when businesses are under pressure and you end up with this race to the bottom, don’t you around offers and price and that’s sort of the symptoms isn’t it? Of a business moving towards commoditisation. And I think we’ve seen it in lots of different industries.
Mark Jones: Supermarkets are great for that stuff.
Jane Power: Yes, exactly. And I certainly think… We went there last year and we in response to I think a bit of anxiety around numbers and business performance, we went really hard above the line on offers. And our customers told us pretty directly that just quite frankly pinged them off. And so we did a piece of research to really validate that that was the wrong tactic. And what it showed is that, you had all these customers that are saying, I have been with you for 25 years, but you’re going to give more to a brand new customer then you are to me. I spoke to an eighty year old, a customer this morning that had been with us for 35 years. I love doing that. We do detractor calls, all the execs do ‘detractor calls’ every month and somebody said, he has I been with you for 25 years and what are you doing for me? That’s the right question. I do think-
Mark Jones: So demonstrating value is key?
Jane Power: Yes. Demonstrating value is critical. And also back to that balance question, you also got to think about, are you investing enough in your customers as you are acquiring? I think we tilted the wrong way. So we’re doing a lot of work and I think with the benefit of marketing tech stacks now and data and modelling, you can be a lot smarter around how you do that then probably where we were even five years ago.
Mark Jones: We’ve just spanned like all these incredible topics. One after the other. Before we close and wrap it up, how do you engage competitively?
Jane Power: I think the risk for the insurance categories, is it goes down the path of insurance more broadly, which has become very commoditized. I think comparators certainly drive that a lot. I think the opportunity there for us is to make sure that we are giving customers and non customers, a pretty compelling reason why. I think that is about being much more proposition led in what we’re doing.
Mark Jones: So better value?
Jane Power: Yes, better value is an outcome of better products, better propositions. Because I think if you’re just going to compete on price in insurance category it’s all coming down to gold, silver, bronze. So it’s moving-
Mark Jones: My gold is better than your gold.
Jane Power: Yes, that’s exactly right. That’s a pretty rational conversation, right? Whereas as marketers, we know in order to win, you need to have much more emotional connection with customers. If all you’re doing is fighting-
Jane Power: ….in the sand pit around whether it’s a red spade or a blue spade, we all know as an industry we’re all going to lose. I think being very proposition lead. And I think our first sort of evidence of that is the, the campaign I referred to this shit. We want to do a lot more on that. And we are very, very customer led. We’ve got pretty strong HCD capability-
Mark Jones: HCD?
Jane Power: Human centred design.
Mark Jones: Of course.
Jane Power: Of course another bingo for you. So we really looking at what are customer’s expecting from us and then how do we respond? And as I said, what is the one thing they’re looking for? They want to buy health and wellbeing. And so we’ve really got to think about, well, what does that look like for us and how do we meet the needs of the customers into the future in a world where if all we’re doing is selling insurance, we probably won’t be where we are.
Mark Jones: I know that it’s difficult to quantify. If I go with Bupa, I’ll be healthier. It’s very hard to quantify a claim like that. Right?
Jane Power: Yes.
Mark Jones: But it seems to me that’s what you’re alluding to it, it’s a better quality of life outcome is that?
Jane Power: Yes. That is the message. But it also, they might be, if you’re ill, chronically ill, it’s making sure that you feel supported and cared for, which might actually though just be about connecting you to the right provider at the right price in the right location.
Mark Jones: So better service?
Jane Power: Yes. Better service. Because you can’t kid yourself, we can’t make the Australian population healthier, we can’t do that on our own.
Mark Jones: No.
Jane Power: I think the days of marketers telling customers what to do, like get healthier or jump higher, I think everyone’s pretty fatigued by that. Let’s not kid ourselves. We are an enabler for that. That’s all about to your previous points about CX, isn’t it? So what is the experience we can create for our customers to enable them now… What your goal might be around being healthier might be completely different to me, to our moms, our dads. So know the customer in a deeply personal way. And then personalise that proposition to them as best that you can in a scalable way. But I think, at least from a marketing point of view, we have such an opportunity to personalise the messaging and the way we talk to them and the way that we serve up our products and services. That’s our opportunity.
Mark Jones: Thank you so much for being our guest.
Jane Power: No, thanks so much for having me. I’ve really enjoyed it.
Mark Jones: You know, it’s interesting as I’ve been reflecting my conversation with Jane, on short-termism via the digital channels and how we can make a big splash. What value does it create in the long term? When you get into that, I think actually the issue, and I’ve talked to many people about this lately, and forgive me because I always talk about storytelling, but she did say that they’re publishing stories every week. And that getting that story right and creating a compelling, emotional story is the number one thing that’s going to make a difference.
Mark Jones: It’s just amazing the more and more we dig into that idea just how much resonance it has from so many different angles. Whether it’s how do you do it in a digital context, or how do you do it with a big picture, long term idea in mind, and one that meets all these different stakeholders that you’re trying to satisfy.
Mark Jones: Storytelling is a strategy. And being able to connect, the different types of value for your culture, and for your business, and then for the consumers. Finding that angle and doing it really well is becoming, I think, one of the biggest lifts we have to pull in marketing and as business partners, as strategists in the business is really owning that piece. So it’s great to hear her speak about how she’s been able to do that at a global level, and then draw outcomes in the local market. Mark Jones: I hope you’ve enjoyed it as much as I did. I’d love you to share the show. I always say this, but thank you for sharing, for commenting, and telling your friends about us. It means a lot to us. We’re having a great time, and I hope you continue to enjoy the show, until next time.