The CMO Show:
Matthew Kwoka on death industry...

Matthew Kwoka, Director of Southern Cross Funeral Directors, sits down with host Mark Jones to discuss marketing in the death industry, and how a brand can use its platform to educate its audience.

According to a survey commissioned by Conductor, consuming educational content dramatically increases a consumer’s likelihood to purchase (131% more likely to buy immediately after reading a piece of content).

So, as a marketer who seeks to ‘move the needle’, how are you using your brand’s position and platform to educate your audience? 

Matthew Kwoka, Director of Southern Cross Funeral Directors, says the Australian family-owned and operated funeral service provider’s purpose is to look after and educate the community on what they need to know about death, what they can expect, and the legal requirements surrounding the topic.

In recent years, the Australian death industry has had its reputation somewhat tarnished by instances of misleading and unethical practices.

In this context, Southern Cross Funeral Directors has sought to differentiate itself in the market, by placing emphasis on rebuilding consumer confidence and trust through transparent communication and educational content.

“We’re dealing with people’s grief. And everyone, every person grieves differently. Male, female. People who have been exposed to death in the past grieve differently to people for whom it’s a new experience, who have never walked that path before. So, we need to be able to read that in the industry and support the families the best way that we can,” Matthew says. 

“We conducted a survey [in 2020 with] consumers about their thoughts on death, their exposure to death, and what they think is important. The main message we received from that was education. People don’t talk about [death] because people don’t want to think about when they pass away. You live for the day.”

This valuable consumer insight informed Southern Cross Funeral Directors’ ongoing marketing strategy, with Matthew focusing on capturing and sharing important conversations on the topics of death, dying and grief, and making them an educational experience for the organisation’s audience.

“We came up with a concept called Death Defined. We sit with people in my lounge room, we film it, and we talk about death and their experience. I’ve never met these people before. I’m sitting in a t-shirt and jeans. So, it’s very, very relaxed and it’s about educating people about death. [What] we look at when we market is transparency, education, and what the consumer needs.”

Check out this episode of The CMO Show to hear more from Matthew and find out how marketers can move the needle by using their position of influence to take a stand on big issues and educate consumers. 

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The CMO Show production team

Producers – Charlotte Goodwin & Stephanie Woo

Audio Engineers – Tom Henderson & Daniel Marr

Got an idea for an upcoming episode or want to be a guest on The CMO Show? We’d love to hear from you: cmoshow@filteredmedia.com.au.

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Transcript

Host: Mark Jones

Guest: Matthew Kwoka

Mark Jones:
In marketing, we seek to ‘move the needle’ by educating customers. We educate to move people from uninformed to informed, unmotivated to inspired, and unbelief to belief. Now the good news is, brands can move the needle on these things if they use their position of influence to authentically take a stand on big issues. The bad news is, if they don’t, they get left behind. So what’s one thing your brand can do to ‘lead by example’ and educate your audience? What do your customers need to know?

Mark Jones:
Hello friends! How are you doing? Mark Jones here. It is so good to have you with us again on The CMO Show podcast as we continue to share stories about brands with a ‘purpose beyond profit.’ This week, death and taxes.

Mark Jones:
Well, technically just the former as we’ve covered the financial services industry – that is taxes – at length in past episodes… Today we’re tackling ‘the’ taboo industry itself – funeral care. And my guest today is Matthew Kwoka, he’s Director of Southern Cross Funerals – one of Australia’s most trusted family-owned and operated funeral homes. 

Mark Jones:
Now just before we get into it, a bit of a content warning. Matthew and I do discuss the topic of death, and dying and funerals as part of the interview, so if that is a difficult topic for you, I encourage you to take a moment and think about whether you want to continue to tune in and listen to this one. Otherwise, join me as I speak with Matthew about marketing a taboo topic, and sincerity in brand storytelling. 

Mark Jones:
Great to have you with us, Matthew.

Matthew Kwoka:
Thank you, Mark.

Mark Jones:
So, tell me about the sort of people who get into the funeral industry. And the reason I ask, is it’s not that aspirational career that you hear talked about at the family dinner table with your kids, right?

Matthew Kwoka:
Correct. Correct. But it’s a very, very good table topic because people always have lots of questions for you because it’s not a widely discussed industry, really. I suppose people get into the industry because they want to help people. They have empathy and kindness, and often what I’ve found with staff and peers who I come in contact with is it takes a really special person to deal with people travelling through the worst time of their lives.

Mark Jones:
Right. Yeah. I couldn’t agree more. Maybe there’s a parallel to nursing in that regard, in terms of a compassion and a care for people.

Mark Jones:
How did you get into the industry?

Matthew Kwoka:
Family friends actually started Southern Cross and I was exposed to death from a very young age.  I used to go over and help where I could in school holidays and when I had free time, when I was younger.

Mark Jones:
Yeah, right.

Matthew Kwoka:
When I was older, I actually had some flower shops and everything was interlinked. We did the flowers for the funeral home. And then one of the directors suffered a stroke in 2006, and then I came on board to assist. As it turns out, I was fortunate enough to be able to purchase a business in 2011.

Mark Jones:
That’s amazing. So, you kind of grown up with death, I suppose.

Matthew Kwoka:
I have. I have. Yes.

Mark Jones:
So, we’re going to be pushing all the taboo boundaries here, right?

Matthew Kwoka:
No problem.

Mark Jones:
It’s the whole death and taxes cliche, right?

Matthew Kwoka:
Yes.

Mark Jones:
I’m just going to resist going there too far. But look, I have been really interested in your sector, in the death, dying and funeral sector, for quite some time, because it is not just taboo but really poorly understood. I’ve got to say, I have been really curious to understand how the industry talks about itself. I’ve spent a lot of time in all sorts of industries, like marketing and finance and tech, and if you go to any of those conferences, you’ll get all sorts of really open, free-flowing conversations, right? There’ll be upbeat conversations about the future. There’ll be all these really sincere focus conversations on what’s broken and what we’ve got to fix. There’ll be laughter. There’ll be joking. There’s no sense of any taboo, right? With the exception of perhaps not talking about government or taxes or I don’t know, right?

Matthew Kwoka:
I get that. Yeah.

Mark Jones:
Right. So, if you compare that, when you start to talk about the funeral sector, there’s this sense that you need to be sincere and caring, that you can’t really joke a lot. I’m not trying to push us too far into the jokes, but there’s this sense of, “Ooh, I’ve got to be a bit careful here.” So, how does the industry talk about itself?

Matthew Kwoka:
Realistically, like historically, the funeral director, if you see they’re these animated cartoons of  this staunch person that is very sombre. What I’ve tried to implement in my business with my staff is the first thing we need to do is make our clients and our families feel relaxed, okay? Because they are trusting us with someone they love. So, often I will have families who say to me – because I still do every aspect of my business, because I don’t expect my staff to do anything that I wouldn’t do or I don’t know how to do – a lot of the time people will say, “I didn’t think it would be this easy. I never thought I would be making a joke making my father’s funeral arrangements.” Because now, a funeral is a celebration of life. It’s not a mourning of death as such.

Matthew Kwoka:
So, you need to capture the essence of that person, and often humour has a big part to play because they touched everyone’s lives. They were funny. They were a joker. So, often that comes through when we’re talking – we’re making arrangements with the family – that humour aspect does come through. With other funeral providers that I deal with, it’s the same sort of thing. We’ve got one chance to hold a service for someone you love. It needs to be conducted and executed properly, and it doesn’t need to be rushed. So, you’ve got to take your time to put whatever the family wants into that service to celebrate that person’s life, and whatever they need to do, it’s our job to execute it and make sure that it happens.

Mark Jones:
So, I presume you’re going to match your style and approach with a client to where they’re at, right?

Matthew Kwoka:
Correct.

Mark Jones:
If they’re just completely shattered, and this is quite rightly an unbelievable scenario, then of course you’re going to match that. But equally, if it’s a complete celebration of life, and I’ve been part of those sort of funerals where it’s “This person has had an incredible innings, and we’re here to celebrate, and it’s bright colours and those sorts of things”, that allows you to match the – there’s a lot of emotional intelligence, I imagine, that goes on from that point of view.

Matthew Kwoka:
There is. One of the main things I get my staff to research is what they call the ‘Seven Stages of Grief’, because grief is a giant roller coaster. You have your good moments. You have your bad moments. You have disbelief. Also, the mood of the service also – how the person passed away has a big part to play. When someone passes away suddenly, you find the grief is totally different to someone who’s passed away from an illness where the family have a chance to say goodbye and get that closure. If the death is tragic, totally different scenario to someone who was ready for dying. So, for us, we need to read that and understand that, and work with the families as well.

Matthew Kwoka:
So, with us, we’ve implemented a lot of personal touches with the services that we provide. Sometimes we say, “Look, this is a personal choice. We can give you an ink impression of your loved one’s hand.” Because we had a lady a few years ago who held her husband’s hand every night and she said, “I really want something because I held his hand.” So, we got an ink impression of his hand. We do it complimentary, and we gave it to her, and we said, “You still got his hand with you as a memory.”

Mark Jones:
That’s incredible.

Matthew Kwoka:
Yeah, so it’s about making things personal.

Mark Jones:
So if I’m to understand what you’re saying, you’re actually in the grief business. You’re not in the death business. Is that right?

Matthew Kwoka:
Correct. Yeah. We’re dealing with people’s grief. And everyone, every person grieves differently. Male, female. People who have been exposed to death in the past grieve differently to people for whom it’s a new experience, who have never walked that path before. So, we need to be able to read that in the industry and support the families the best way that we can.

Mark Jones:
Tell me about COVID-19. We have to talk about this, right?

Matthew Kwoka:
Of course.

Mark Jones:
So, the interesting thing – if we go back to March, April, May of last year – and the world was just coming to grips with the fact that we now have a global pandemic. It’s in many countries out of control, remains out of control. But I think, and I’m just reflecting on my own experience, it certainly shook us up in terms of, this is a – the question of death is now in your face. At the time there was no vaccine and you could die from this thing. 

Matthew Kwoka:
Correct. Yeah.

Mark Jones:
What impact did that have on the industry?

Matthew Kwoka:
For us, we were quite fortunate because we’ve custom built our systems that often the perception of going to a funeral home – and this was a big thing that pushed me to make this decision with our systems – was people didn’t like visiting a funeral home. People didn’t like walking into a room full of coffins and making those decisions. They found it very overwhelming. So what we did, we built a system that’s cloud-based. So we can actually do funeral arrangements via Zoom. We can do everything via email as well, so the family aren’t hit with that trauma. What we did as well to modify our behaviours when COVID hit was – I sat down with my leadership team and we didn’t think it was ethical to charge families our standard price that we were charging prior to COVID when only 8 or 10 people could go to the service.

Matthew Kwoka:
So, we modified our pricing structure to reflect that because it’s not ethical for us to charge what we did when the services were impacted. Because we had a cloud-based system that we could do arrangements via the internet, that really helped people. So, for us, when we – because we’re extremely transparent in our business with our quotations, everything’s listed, we give a whole detail, a whole lot of information to our families – people like that because they felt safe and that they could do everything from the comfort of their own home. Services were impacted and a lot of people, instead of just having a service, we brought in the option to have a memorial service at a later date where mourning numbers could be normal. So, we would often get a loved one cremated, hold the ashes and then hold a memorial service at a later day. That worked really well for us with COVID because we gave people choice and we modified our business to suit.

Mark Jones:
That’s good to hear. 

Mark Jones:
Well, look, you talk about pricing and transparency and of course, speaking of another taboo topic – or at least possibly uncomfortable for people in the industry – there was, if I think about the last year and before that, a real outcry against the transparency and this real question of ethics, right? It’s been a big issue and I’m sure-

Matthew Kwoka:
Exactly.

Mark Jones:
… that we’ll hear a lot more about it because there is the potential – and it’s not an uncommon thing – for funeral service providers to exploit people at their worst moments, right?

Matthew Kwoka:
100%, Mark.

Mark Jones:
This is probably the darkest stain, I would suggest, is over the industry, is that question of, “Can I trust these people?”

Matthew Kwoka:
Exactly.

Mark Jones:
“How do I know they’re not ripping me off? I’m at the worst possible point in time to be making these sorts of rational decisions.” It’s the worst form of upsell, really, in many cases. I don’t need to go on about it because I’m sure you know all the details, but-

Matthew Kwoka:
Totally.

Mark Jones:
what’s your attitude to that?  But how much of an impact has that had on the way that you do business?

Matthew Kwoka:
For us, there are “briefcase” operators, okay? So, that’s why regulations were brought in with quotations and pricing structure due to the recent media coverage. Unfortunately, the minority tarnished the majority. So, CHOICE did an exposé last year on funeral homes about non-transparency. Now, we actually passed that because our quotation systems that we’ve implemented has a detailed invoice, or a detailed quotation priced that’s attached. The consumer has the right to engage anyone whom they feel comfortable with. What we do in our business, we don’t work on KPIs. That’s why we’ve come together. We service service options for families that include everything so there’s no hidden prices. On our quotations, they’re all detailed. Of course the family can have options to change facets of the service options. But what we did that’s a major major point that I say to my staff is, “We do not take advantage of people’s grief.” We don’t upsell. We don’t believe in upselling and that’s why we came up with these service options with different services that we offer to give people that choice.

Mark Jones:
So, you choose the package.

Matthew Kwoka:
Exactly.

Mark Jones:
Choose the package you want, and it’s all-in and there’s no more-

Matthew Kwoka:
And it’s all detailed.

Mark Jones:
There’s no more questions.

Matthew Kwoka:
Yeah, it’s all emailed and it’s all there in black and white.

Mark Jones:
Yeah. So, it’s interesting. I came across a website called Gathered Here, which is one of those aggregators. It allows you to choose and compare services, and I presume there are others out there as well. So, that suggests to me that firstly, it’s a good step towards more transparency. I imagine it might have the impact of driving down prices in the industry, if that’s the case, because now we’re moving to these commodity packages of what you get. I think it’s like any other consumer good. You can very quickly start comparing features and benefits-

Matthew Kwoka:
Exactly.

Mark Jones:
… online from the comfort of your home, and you don’t have to invest hours talking to a funeral director. So, what do you think is going to happen with that scenario?

Matthew Kwoka:
Our industry needs regulation. We’re an unregulated industry, which is a big bug bear for players such as myself within the industry. For us, we have our own facilities, our own mortuaries and fleet. Transparency is paramount. The consumer has the option to engage whomever they please, but for me – again, it’s these people that work from a briefcase. They don’t have the overheads that a company such as myself or other players in the market have because we have our own mortuary facilities. We have full-time staff and our own vehicles. We don’t hire in services. So, pricing structure is a hard thing because someone that doesn’t have their own mortuary or their own offices and work from a mobile phone, they don’t have the overheads that someone like me does with six sites. So, everything’s relative.

Matthew Kwoka:
But the feedback that we often get from our families is – the staff that I have have been with me for a long time – so, we had a comment last week that a family said to us, “It was beautiful that I had the same team,” that was on her father’s funeral four and a half years ago. She remembered them and they called her by first name. So, it’s those personal touches that mean a lot, because we do have full-time staff and we make the experience something to be remembered as much as we can.

Mark Jones:
I’m keen to talk about the marketing side of things. Look, and to be fair, I’ve felt like it’s really important to understand that big picture context before we talk about now, how do you market this thing, right?

Matthew Kwoka:
Yes.

Mark Jones:
The classic, you can be good, fast and cheap, right? And you can pick two of those. So, it sounds to me, to reflect back what I’m hearing is that, “Look, we are good.” And perhaps, “We’re fast,” in the sense of the way that you deliver services and that speed. So, you’re not apologising for quality. Is that what you’re saying?

Matthew Kwoka:
For quality is important. As I said, it’s the consumer’s choice to whom they engage. So, it’s the experience, and this is what I say to my staff. When a consumer calls for an inquiry, they automatically get a feel of whom they’re talking to. With the quotations we sent out, we say, “Regardless if you engage our services or that of another provider, these are what you need to look for.'” So, it comes on transparency and education. So, every service is different. Every service, for me, you have one chance to hold a funeral. One chance only, and it has to be done properly. So, whether the family want the service delivered within three days or 10 days, we work with them to ensure it’s delivered to a standard that is top shelf.

Mark Jones:
So, tell me about your marketing strategy then. What’s the big picture? What are you looking to achieve? Are you like every other business looking for growth? What’s the positioning that you’ve taken?

Matthew Kwoka:
Education. Education. We conducted a survey last year, an online survey that we funded ourselves, that we got feedback from consumers about their thoughts on death, their exposure to death, and what they think is important. The main message we received from that was education. People don’t talk about it because people don’t want to think about when they pass away. You live for the day. So, for us in marketing, we’ve engaged a marketing company that have been fantastic. They’ve led me. Because again, when you’re head of a business, you can’t run everything. You have to put people in the seats that they know what to do. So, as a result, there’s been many meetings where marketing tools have been brought up and I’ve gone, “That doesn’t sound good. I like it. I don’t like it.” We actually came up with a concept called Death Defined.

Matthew Kwoka:
So, the whole thing is, with Death Defined, is it’s very relaxed look at death. So, what we do is we sit with people in my lounge room, we film it, and we talk about death and their experience, what they know. I’ve never met these people before. I’m sitting in a t-shirt and jeans. So, it’s very, very relaxed and it’s about educating people about death. So, the whole thing that we look at when we market is transparency, education, and we also look at what the consumer needs. So, it’s, yeah, of course every business wants to grow, but a large portion of our work is from recommendation.

Mark Jones:
In other words, you’re starting conversations. You’re promoting conversations.

Matthew Kwoka:
Yes.

Mark Jones:
You’re improving brand awareness.

Matthew Kwoka:
Yes.

Mark Jones:
It’s a storytelling approach

Matthew Kwoka:
It is.

Mark Jones:
You’ve obviously got the PR component and then you’ve got the education side of things. So, how do you think about that mix and what’s important to you?

Matthew Kwoka:
What’s important to me is educating people on what they need to know, what they can expect, the legal requirements surrounding death, the importance of wills being prepared. To me, the amount of families that I’ve sat with over the years that have said, “I’ve had no idea I had to get my grandmother’s maiden name and what they did for an occupation for a death certificate.” So, we’ve listened to the feedback we’ve received from families, and that’s what we’re targeting on because you can’t market death in the public arena, in your face, because someone might be losing someone they love, someone may have just lost someone they love, and I never want to go down that road of actually being in people’s faces about death. Because it’s a slow process and it’s a very delicate subject and it comes in and that whole grief aspect, how people grieve is very important in that arena.

Mark Jones:
Yeah. But as you said, you’re not marketing death. You’re marketing grief.

Matthew Kwoka:
That’s right. We are marketing grief.

Mark Jones:
And then-

Matthew Kwoka:
We are marketing grief, but we’re marketing knowledge of it. We’re marketing how to cope with it.

Mark Jones:
Correct. Yeah.

Matthew Kwoka:
With that comes, once people are educated on that grief sector, they then start asking more questions once they’re more comfortable with it.

Mark Jones:
What responsibility do you feel for the rest of the sector and those briefcase operators? What’s your view on that?

Matthew Kwoka:
The sector needs to be regulated. We need regulation. We’re an accredited funeral provider. Our facilities are inspected. We’re all above industry standard. However, with “briefcase” operators or these people that have given the industry a tarnished image – again, it’s about educating the community or the consumer about these type of operators so that when they ring up, they go, “Well, is this a situation? Where are you based and how many sites do you have?” It’s about asking the questions. Again, it’s about the people feeling comfortable. Someone might ring up someone who works out of a briefcase and they really like them, and that operator delivers an amazing service. I’m not tarnishing all these people because there’s good out there. There’s real good out there. But unfortunately, as I said, the minority ruin it for the majority. But people need to start asking the questions, looking on the internet, seeing what reviews are. Every provider, or every business has its good and bad. Every industry.

Mark Jones:
I’m interested in what you might be able to share with people from the perspective of authenticity and trust, and how do you convey that? Because if I think about some of the creative that I’ve seen from other providers in the funeral industry, some of it is an immediate turnoff to me, some of it looks kind of almost way too sincere. You’re walking such a fine line.

Matthew Kwoka:
Yeah, definitely.

Mark Jones:
So, presenting yourself as open, accessible, transparent, caring, and doing so in a way that seems to match the zeitgeist – the mood of the room, right

Mark Jones:
So, what have you learned in terms of being able to try to get that whole piece right?

Matthew Kwoka:
Trial and error.

Mark Jones:
Right.

Matthew Kwoka:
So basically with us, with our systems. The big thing for me when I started building our systems was communication. So, when we take a loved one into care, our client services division send a text saying, “Dear Mark, please be advised we now have so-and-so in our care.” It’s just giving that family that comfort to know where their loved ones at, and it’s giving them the reassurance. We don’t bombard them with these sorts of things, but it’s all about communication. That’s why we send out quotation emails, confirmation emails. We’re available 24/7. Staff give the families their – they have a company mobile. Because often you’ll find people will be discussing things around a table of 8:00 at night.

Matthew Kwoka:
The family will have to ask that question tomorrow and they forget. They need to have that access to be able to be in connect, say, “Look, can we do this? Is this allowed?” So, for us, we’ve opened that door that we are contactable. People can ring us and ask us that question. And we would have the transparency through all of our sites and all of our staff logins and everyone can see exactly where every funeral’s at.

Mark Jones:
Yeah. Well, I mean, I’d say that’s on the classic marketing funnel, that’s just before a sale, you’ve got a really strong focus on engagement at that level. How do you present images, big picture ideas, concepts of trust and sincerity at the broader awareness level? In other words, “Here’s our brand. This is what we do. Think of us,” type messaging. How do you get that right?

Matthew Kwoka:
Mark, this may sound really weird here. I don’t believe in the in your face marketing ploy. As I said, a lot of our business is repeat business and word of mouth. We do have an amazing lady that goes to aged care facilities. That’s our part of giving back. She does amazing bird shows and it puts a smile on people’s faces. We look at – it’s more the experience. It’s more the, “Yes, you know what? We’re here, but we’re not in your face.” That’s the angle that I like to promote my brand. I don’t believe in saying, “This is the price and do this.” It’s not like that. The consumer has the right to engage whenever they want. But for me, and that’s why I spoke with my marketing people, it’s the fact that I don’t like that hard targeted branding or marketing. That’s not my thing.

Mark Jones:
Yeah, got it.

Matthew Kwoka:
It may work for other people. For me, that’s not how I want my brand to be perceived.

Mark Jones:
Yeah. In other words, you’re avoiding the billboards at the train station.

Matthew Kwoka:
Oh, exactly. Exactly

Mark Jones:
So, if we think about the future of your brand and what you’ve learned so far and where you’d like to take it, what does the future look like? What lessons are you happy to share beyond the conversations we’ve already had?

Matthew Kwoka:
I want to have a brand that people feel comfortable with. We’re Australian-owned. We’re privately owned. We’re still family-owned. There’s not many of us left out there. I want people to engage us who want to. Look, Mark, to be honest, I’ll never, ever be a millionaire because I’m not in it for the money. I’m in it for the love. My staff are in it for the love. I have my family members work for me, which is great because we can yell at one another and we get the job done. But for me, where I want my brand to go, I just want my brand to be known as a trusted brand, of someone they can ring. When we talk to people on the phone who are ringing up for a quote, we say, “Even if you engage someone else, if you have a question, you ring us back. That’s what we’re here for.”

Matthew Kwoka:
We don’t chase the business and I want to give people that choice, right? That’s the whole thing with me. So for me, what I want my brand to go, I just want it to be known. I want it to be out there. I want people to know it is a trusted brand, and again, they engage our brand because they want to, not because they feel they have to on price point or where we’re located. 

Mark Jones:
Matthew, it’s been a pleasure to have you on the show.

Matthew Kwoka:
Thank you.

Mark Jones:
Thank you for sharing the insights, for making the uncomfortable comfortable and-

Matthew Kwoka:
Appreciate it.

Mark Jones:
… going after all of those taboo subjects. That’s been great. I really appreciate it.

Matthew Kwoka:
And I appreciate it. Thank you so much, Mark.

Mark Jones:
So that was my interview with Matthew Kwoka. And it’s something that I’ve been fascinated by for so long is how do funeral organisations work and think. Now I just want to say, if the topic of our conversation has brought up any issues for you, please do call Lifeline on 13 11 14. Now just thinking about Southern Cross Funerals, it’s just such a great example of a brand that’s got really strong on its sense of purpose – fighting the good fight against taboos by educating its audience through effective content, which of course is a fantastic strategy. These are all admirable strides towards building consumer confidence and trust in their brand and service, and I applaud them for that.

Mark Jones:
Now, before I go, if you haven’t already, please “subscribe” to The CMO Show on your favourite podcast app, so you never miss an episode. And be sure to head over to LinkedIn and follow both The CMO Show and the Filtered Media pages for fun teaser content ahead of each upcoming episode. So that’s it from me on this episode of the The CMO Show. As always, it’s been great to have you with us. Until next time.

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