General Manager Sales & Marketing at BIG4 Holiday Parks, Mohit Bhargava, talks to host Mark Jones about how marketing the “great Australian break” starts with crafting an authentic customer experience (CX).
What’s your fondest family holiday memory? For many Australians, it’s the experience of visiting a holiday park – rounding up the troops, jumping in a caravan, and setting out on a big (or small) adventure somewhere away from home.
Mohit Bhargava, General Manager Sales & Marketing at BIG4 Holiday Parks and previously at Village Roadshow, knows how important it is to create an experience customers won’t soon forget.
Leading with a data-driven approach, Mohit has been recognised as one of Australia’s Top 50 most innovative marketers for the last three years running. He’s using his expertise to transform BIG4 to appeal to “the changing dynamics of what makes up [an Australian] family.”
“The primary problem we’re trying to solve is evolve our offering and future proof it for what is arguably the new Australian. We’ve got a great product, we’ve got a very strong underpinning purpose and ethos, but the risk we run is becoming a legacy brand and offering what was relevant to the Australia of the past,” he says.
As the organisation’s marketing and sales function leader, Mohit’s job is twofold and requires him to look at the bigger picture.
“The most important thing for us from a digital standpoint is how do we actually reduce our cost of sale and make the most profitable sales viable for our partners? That is a key part of our strategy and involves ongoing management of stock and pricing. The other aspect of this is to manage direct sales and repeat visitation for our loyalty programme very carefully,” he says.
How does Mohit ensure visitors will return to create more lasting family memories? By creating content customers can relate to.
“Caravanning and camping is a lifestyle choice, and if you’re not speaking with authenticity and you don’t get that, and the people in your content team don’t get it, it’s going to get undone pretty quick,” he says.
Tune in to this episode of The CMO Show to find out what it takes to create a compelling customer experience people want to come back to, and step up to the challenge of evolving a business in tandem with the expectations of its audience.
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Host: Mark Jones
Guest: Mohit Bhargava
Mark Jones: Zach Galifianakis has this great little YouTube clip where he does a fantastically awkward interview with Jerry Seinfeld, and also Cardi B who gets introduced as the far better guestThere’s this great line, he says, speaking to not to Jerry, he says to Cardi, “The most important thing is that you’re relevant.” Isn’t that like a quote of the times? As we think about pop culture, about entertainment and lifestyle, as marketers, Do you know the things that are really relevant in your industry?
Mark Jones: Friends, hello, welcome to The CMO Show. I’ve got a great interview for you today with Mohit Bhargava and he is general manager of sales and marketing at BIG4 Holiday Park. I guess one of my passions actually in storytelling is understanding what’s the influence of our belief systems? What do we think, is the best type of holiday? What’s the most authentic, meaningful experience you could create for your family? For me, you’ve had these great experiences in holiday parks, then it turns out later on in your life, you’re more inclined to do that.
Mark Jones: If you’ve only ever grown up flying to Bali and Europe in the summer, then you’re going to be inclined to go on those ways because your experience tells you that that’s the best type of thing. The challenge comes when you want to change customer behaviour and change what they believe about what is a great experience. So, we’ve got a conversation here with Mohit that I’m excited to share with you, because he comes from an entertainment background, and he’s coming into holiday parks in the context of Australian community.
Mark Jones: The dynamics of what a family looks like in Australia has really changed over the last decade. In particular, we’re seeing up to 30% of families are interracial, so that brings with it all sorts of different expectations about what a great family holiday should look like. Join me and have a listen to this interview with Mohit as we unpack some really interesting insights into how to connect relevance with a diverse set of target audiences that are wrapped up into this thing that we call the Australian family.
Mark Jones: Mohit. Thanks for joining us.
Mohit Bhargava: Pleasure. Thank you for having me.
Mark Jones: Now, I’ve just got to come straight out of the gate and say that
Mark Jones: I’m from an old school caravaning family, and some of my best holiday experiences were roaming free around what used to be called caravan parks. Now they’re called holiday parks. I say that by way of asking you probably the big question, which is just how much have holiday parks changed over the past 10 years?
Mohit Bhargava: 10 years ago, up until now, the caravan park to the holiday park journey has been quite a unique one. They’ve gone from being what was historically seen to be great locations, that’s the consistent thing, but the actual customer experience and the range of offerings has evolved substantially.
Mohit Bhargava: A holiday park today could have anything from indoor water parks, to some even having spas, to a range of accommodation experiences from your regular caravaning experience, but also you’ve got glamping, you’ve got safari tents, you’ve got various forms of cabins and roofed accommodation. And also in and around the holidays, every individual park is creating activities and experiences to truly enhance the guest experience for families.
Mohit Bhargava: I think in some ways, the product offering has been well and truly keeping up with the shift in customer demands and expectations.
Mark Jones: How close do you think it’s getting to a traditional hotel or resort style approach? You’re not just what you do, but how you approach it and sell it in.
Mohit Bhargava: Look, I think fundamentally, the ethos of the holiday park product is different to what is a resort. That said, some of the offerings that we provide are also provided at resorts, but it’s the delivery of the experience and the philosophy by which we conduct our business that differs entirely. The majority of the parks in BIG4 are independently owned and they’re family operated businesses, which completely transforms the kind of experience, the service quality, and the personalisation that comes with holidaying in one of these parks, compared to your regular cut and dry resorts.
Mark Jones: to my experience was that it’s actually quite variable, based on how fatigued the owners are, right?
Mohit Bhargava: Yeah, true.
Mark Jones: What’s the BIG4 difference? Are you a little bit like a franchise model? How does it operate?
Mohit Bhargava: The story of BIG4, we’re a member owned cooperative, started about 40 years ago. It was started by four park operators in Ballarat, and it really, the genesis of the brand and what we do has stemmed from being independently owned and operated parks coming together, to align on certain key strategic aspects of our business that create a halo for the entire network.
Mark Jones: It’s like a big member owned independent network, and presumably you’re pooling your marketing funds and so forth?
Mohit Bhargava: Absolutely.
Mark Jones: Your background is interesting, coming from Village and Nova, and I’m sure there are some interesting overlaps with the entertainment sector and holiday parks.
Mohit Bhargava: Yes, indeed.
Mark Jones: When you got to this new gig, what was your first task? What did you do?
Mohit Bhargava: The first task was actually to get on the road and see these things, because our purpose is to inspire families to create a great Australian break, and for somebody who’s charged with selling and marketing that, you have to be out there and understand the products. I actually visited 37 parks in three weeks on the West and East Coast of Australia, which was quite an experience.
Mark Jones: Wow.
Mohit Bhargava: It really gave me a sense of the breadth and depth of what we offer, from some parks that are ecotourism, and salt of the Earth kind of stuff, and on the other side you’ve got resort scale parks as well. how we actually bind all that together into a single minded proposition was the first aspect that was charged to do, and we have some strategic launches underway which I’m not at liberty to share at this point in time, but fundamentally I’ve been brought on to take the business from what has historically been a brand and promotionally led marketing function to being more skewed towards digital, CRM, and retail.
Mark Jones: It’s quite interesting to imagine the pub crawl meets holiday park crawl, right? Did you drag a caravan around? What did you do? How did you do that?
Mohit Bhargava: No, I was in a nice, comfortable car to be honest with you, just driving up and down, and lots of regional flights.
Mark Jones: There you go.
Mohit Bhargava: But I must admit mate, Got to see some amazing parts of Australia and that’s the beauty of our parks, is we are in some of the best spots around the country. That’s hard to beat, and that’s a point of difference when you compare our offerings to your regular hotels and resorts.
Mark Jones: So then give me the big picture on your marketing strategy. What’s the primary problem you’re trying to solve?
Mohit Bhargava: The primary problem we’re trying to solve is evolve our offering and future proof it for what is arguably the new Australian. We’ve got a great product, we’ve got a very strong underpinning purpose and ethos, but the risk we run is becoming a legacy brand and offering that was relevant in the Australia that is of the past.
Mohit Bhargava: What I mean by that is for example, if we’re saying we want to inspire Australian families to take the great Australian holiday, the composition of what defines a family today has changed fundamentally. Also, what the representation of Australia and our population mix has changed substantially over the last 20-30 years. So, how do we bring all of Australia along with us and enrol them into the product offering that we have and in some ways, making our offering a lot more inclusive than what it may seem to some Australians today? That’s a key challenge.
Mohit Bhargava: The other challenge we have is essentially growing the frequency of visitation at a time when the duration of holidays is shrinking, by and large, in the domestic markets. People are taking shorter breaks. The other aspect also is the offering itself has evolved so much that it’s not so much about the caravan, or caravaning segment alone. We have several other accommodation segments that we’re looking at and how do we grow each of those segments?
Mark Jones: tell me about the supply/demand story, because my perception is that particularly in peak periods, there’s incredible demands. It’s hard to get into these places.
Mohit Bhargava: Yeah. Your perception is correct. In peak seasons, demand is strong and the parks do very well. A key focus for BIG4 and our CRM and loyalty programme is really about focusing on shoulder seasons, because we have to sustain a certain level of occupancy throughout the year, for businesses to stay profitable. That’s one aspect to it. The other is the caravaning segment is very strong, and overall, Big4 parks grow in double digits every year.
Mohit Bhargava: Business is good. There’s no real shortage of demand. Where our focus is lies is in how do we best manage yield? How do we grow customer frequency outside of peak periods? And how do we drive recruitment and trial into the category?
Mark Jones: So then let’s go back to the diversity aspect. What does the Australian family look like now?
Mohit Bhargava: Look, it’s a moving thing. For instance, 30% of Australian marriages today are interracial. a third of the country that’s not born in Australia. We have also a significant percentage of people that are holidaying overseas, because the barriers of cost, just to holiday locally, it actually encourages you to go overseas, depending on how the dollar performs.
Mohit Bhargava: That also plays out to, depending on the composition of your family, if you’ve got one of the two of you is in a relationship, has family overseas, that tends to motivate you to travel overseas and see your family and that becomes your holiday over the course of the year. The composition of families, by and large, and how we define the great Australian holiday is meaning different things for different people.
Mohit Bhargava: Also, we have a very diverse composition of the fabrics of a family. There’s more people with no children, but they have pets, so what can BIG4 do in that realm to service that segment as a family holiday? That is one example where we have put focus in creating a dedicated offering. We’re one of the biggest networks of pet friendly holiday parks in the country, and that has substantially improved our business’ performance.
Mohit Bhargava: We are trying to manoeuvre with the changing dynamics of what makes up a family and how a family holiday is defined, and that is a very, very important part of ensuring we are future proofing our business.
Mark Jones: Okay. What about the free camping movement? There’s also a segment of people who don’t actually want to go to a holiday park. How do you bring them in?
Mohit Bhargava: Yeah, look, there’s two aspects to that. One is we believe that as a lifestyle, the more people that embrace the caravaning/camping lifestyle, the better we will do as an industry, and we are a big part of that industry. Somebody who was free camping and enjoys that, some of the data we have is we still see some crossover, so people who will free camp will still pop into a holiday park as part of that travel experience, when they’re looking for some modern world comforts, and then they’ll go back out into free camping.
Mohit Bhargava: So in some ways they don’t operate in complete isolation. Eventually, Mark, we are focused on providing a very good experience that will appeal to a segment of the market, and there will always be a segment of the market that will take on another avenue, such as free camping, to fulfil their caravaning experience. We’re not too focused on that. We are largely focused on ensuring that our offering is up to scratch for the customers that enjoy it.
Mark Jones: Yep. If you bring all of that together, what’s the core insight that you developed? What’s the insight that links all of these different types of customers and would inspire them to visit more frequently possibly, and change their holiday habits?
Mohit Bhargava: Well, the underpinning desire to disconnect, to connect with your family or your loved ones, is something that is consistent and we’re seeing that desire grow. As an overarching theme, we’re seeing the more people are connected, the more they want to disconnect. We are focused on ensuring that the tonality, the brand positioning, and how we actually communicate our offering plays to that.
Mohit Bhargava: We have an opportunity to really own that space across the spectrum, and differentiate ourselves from other offerings.
Mark Jones: Okay. You told me you didn’t want to talk about some activities coming up, but I do know one thing you’ve done which is a Wiggles partnership. Now, what’s going on there?
Mohit Bhargava: Yes, we have. You know, it’s somewhat-
Mark Jones: Is this like a childhood fantasy come true?
Mohit Bhargava: it ties back to some of the comments I made earlier. The Wiggles are an iconic Australian brand, as is BIG4, so we wanted to bring these two brands together in creating a partnership which does three. The first aspect to partnership is about recruitment and re-engagement. The Wiggles do a fantastic job of connecting with families with kids aged 2-5, or maybe even a bit older. That is the age group where we see a real opportunity to drive consideration and trial of our product. Using them as a vehicle to help us reach that family segment of the Australian market is very important,
Mohit Bhargava: The second aspect of that partnership is around customer experience and content. We are creating a lot of content that is around the great Australian holiday, which actually features the Wiggles, and a lot of our marketing and communications will be driven with that content at play. Essentially, we are trying to shift our strategy from ad campaigns to being more brand and content oriented, and the Wiggles are helping us shift the perception of what you highlighted as being a caravan park, to being a holiday park. That’s a very important aspect of the kind of work we’re doing with the Wiggles.
Mark Jones: Clarify for me the partnership. Who’s paying who in this dynamic?
Mohit Bhargava: We are paying the Wiggles. We’re the official accommodation partner
Mark Jones: Okay, great. So presumably then you’re going to get some reach in to their audiences?
Mohit Bhargava: Absolutely. As I said, as a recruitment and trial, that happens by way of reaching their audiences, activating at their concerts,
Mark Jones: Yeah, and I guess just from a reach perspective, how does that compare to I guess other more traditional media partnerships?
Mohit Bhargava: Look, I think where we’re at as a brand, we’ve got 78% recall in total travellers in Australia, so the brand is very strong. We’re not looking for reach for the sake of reach. We’re looking for relevant reach, and that’s where the opportunity to work with the Wiggles seemed to be very prudent, because it’s absolutely the market that we’re gunning for. We also recognise that once children and families experience holiday parks at an early age, it’s very likely they’ll stay with our product, whereas if you haven’t visited a holiday park, up to the age of 15, it’s unlikely that you will engage in our offering down the track.
Mark Jones: And how are you expecting to measure the performance of the partnership?
Mohit Bhargava: Look, like any business, we have to business case these things to seek approval. We’ve got specific KPIs around visitation and how we leverage their database and comms assets to grow some of our key metrics.
Mark Jones: and it doesn’t include like let’s make sure we get them to the local caravan park/holiday park?
Mohit Bhargava: No. Thankfully they’ve been very kind. They’ve already done that for us, so we’ve actually just finished recording a song which features the Wiggles and at a BIG4 park. That is to my point about needing branded content. This is not an advertising partnership in isolation. This is also about creating content that engages but subliminally showcases our offering to some of their customers who may not know much about our product.
Mark Jones: Okay. I’m wondering what people could learn from your digital focus. What is it unique about this or these particular target audiences you speak to, how they behave online and what are the changes that you need make to really drive more conversion?
Mohit Bhargava: like any retailer in tourism or aviation and so forth, one of the challenges our industry faces is your inventory is distributed through multiple sales channels. An average park will have their accommodation offerings listed on online travel agent sites, such as Booking.com and Expedia. They will retail through the direct channel on BIG4.com.au, and also they’ll obviously have walk ins and direct sales and their own channels as well.
Mohit Bhargava: The most important thing for us from a digital standpoint is how do we actually reduce our cost of sale and make the most profitable sales viable for our partners? That is a key part of our strategy, and that involves ongoing management of stock and pricing that we work closely with our parks on. The other aspect of this also is we have to manage direct sales and repeat visitation for our loyalty programme very carefully.
Mohit Bhargava: Because you don’t want to be over investing in guests that we can speak to directly through paid channels. There’s an aspect of active suppression, there’s an aspect of the usual tactics around latency, around value segmentation, that all come into play. That is really done off the back of having a strong data warehouse that the business has built over the last few years, that allows us to append transactional and non-transactional data to individual customers,
Mark Jones: Yeah, it sounds a lot like you’re trying to lower the cost of sales.
Mohit Bhargava: We are. There’s an absolute desire to lower the cost of sale, and also to grow frequency and visitation. That’s all direct marketing stuff. We don’t necessarily require above the line advertising and marketing
Mark Jones: Right. The next thing I wanted to ask you about was actually your job title, or your role, which is sales and marketing. This is a big conversation obviously in marketing circles, which is clearly there’s two disciplines there. You’re bringing them together, some people say this is already happening at a global scale, but I’m interested, what does it look like for you?
Mohit Bhargava: Look, I’ve always, I mean even my previous role at Village was bringing together sales and marketing. I’m an advocate for sales and marketing to work closer together. Personally I like staying closer to the profit centre, and that is important when you’re working in consumer facing businesses. Where we are, this is not an FMCG organisation. We have direct to consumer channels, we are essentially in retail. My personal view is it drives for better collaboration and alignment across key functions in the organisation, if you have these two functions integrated.
Mark Jones: Right, okay. Do you think of yourself more as a sales guy then?
Mohit Bhargava: I think of myself as somebody that’s driven by driving growth for a business, and eventually that is agnostic to sales and marketing. That’s really how I see myself.
Mark Jones: Okay. In that context, what’s the role of content? you referred to it, which is really getting away from some of the traditional demand marketing that you’ve focused on in the past. Wiggles aside, or perhaps inclusive, but what’s the content trends that you’re observing and maybe even the content styles that will appeal to your target audience?
Mohit Bhargava: Yeah look, content is critical in our category. People tend to be stimulated by visuals a lot more than they ever have been, and channels like all digital channels are getting more and more visuals than they ever have been.The key themes around content for us are in and around ensuring that we are imaging and presenting the right content to the right customers. What I mean by that is, we are looking at things like agile libraries of content files where we spin up different imagery for different guests for the same location, briefed on their engagement with our digital channels.
Mohit Bhargava: If we know that you’ve clicked on pet friendly holidays as a filter on our website, you will see the same locations around coastal New South Wales, but you’ll see different imagery that will be specific to you, featuring content that inspires pet friendly holidays. Content’s critical and great visuals are very important to sell location based offering, but making it personal is the next layer that we are working on now.
Mohit Bhargava: Because that is where it starts to become more about you and how you can see yourself enjoy an experience in that environment. That is something that we’re all trying to work towards and in my opinion, that’s a leaf that I’ve picked up from the entertainment industry, where Netflix if you’ve been watching a lot of action movies on Netflix, you will start seeing action oriented images in all the thumbnails on the profiles, for the same film.
Mohit Bhargava: That kind of content imaging and personalisation is very important to engage customers on a one to one level.
Mark Jones: That’s interesting. What about the role of video?
Mohit Bhargava: Yeah, it’s huge. One of the challenges our industry has, our footprint’s quite regional, and getting great quality video content is not always that easy. All in all, video is hugely important, so we are currently looking at how we can partner with the most passionate segment of our customers, that are also content creators, and How do we share the brand with our key customers in co-created content? How do we then amplify it further?
Mohit Bhargava: Video is critical. How different brands garner good quality video will vary upon the fabrics of their organisation. In our case, given our footprint, the strategy that I’ve just alluded to makes a lot of sense.
Mark Jones: You’ve kind of read my mind, right? I was thinking to myself, “What’s the co-creation angle here? Because clearly that’s where a lot of the trends are going.” In fact, New Zealand did a great campaign if you saw, I think it’s called good morning world it’s getting New Zealanders to film a very short clip from wherever they are, saying hello the world, right?
Mohit Bhargava: Yes.
Mark Jones: That sort of thing I think I’m expecting to see more things along those lines where you create a sandpit and you start to curate these fan or community submissions, right? I think still early days though.
Mohit Bhargava: Mark, absolutely. It comes down to the brand that you’re a custodian of, because Air New Zealand is a very loved brand and people will do that sort of stuff for the brand, as is Big4 for that matter. People love holidaying at Big4. We’re already capturing great content and micro moments to use marketing jargon, in the parks themselves. We just have to create a platform for them to help and amplify and elevate that, and share that with other holidaymakers, and in turn, help us curate the content.
Mohit Bhargava: If I was working for a mining company, would I get the same sort of engagement from people out at the mines? I’m not so sure. It’s horses for courses, you know?
Mark Jones: What do you think more broadly will happen to influencers in this context? Conceptually, they’re more geared around producing higher quality content, if there’s money involved. But I wonder just how effective they will be compared to the moms and dads and kids creating the content.
Mohit Bhargava: I think Mark, this will all unfold in good time. We have worked with influencers in the past. It’s likely that we will selectively continue to do that from time to time if the needs are warranted. The most important thing for us at Big4 is authenticity, so as long as the way the content is being curated and published is authentic, and is reflecting our offering in a way that we believe is true, then there may well be a role for both sides of content creation and curation.
Mark Jones: Actually and just on that point, this is something I’m particularly fascinated in, is what you’re speaking to there is the balance between the brand and all that it stands for, and perhaps your messaging on the one side of a seesaw, and then the other side of the seesaw is this authenticity piece, or as I call it, real stories. Because you don’t want them to be fake stories, or fake news, and you don’t want them to be presented in such a way that as you say, it’s inauthentic, it completely misses the mark, people don’t have a heart connection with that story that’s like, “This is paid or sponsored” or whatever, and it just doesn’t work. Do you have specific tactics or a process that you might use? How do you get that balance right?
Mohit Bhargava: Look, I think there’s two aspects in the Big4 world when it comes to authentic storytelling. You’ve mentioned, in your instance you’re a caravaner from way back, so there are certain things that you cannot stage when it comes to speaking with seasoned caravaners. They know very quickly when if the person and the voice that’s speaking to them is somebody who gets it and is living that lifestyle and who isn’t.
Mohit Bhargava: It’s very important that we leverage that and whenever we are talking in that realm, the people creating the content, we use insights and idiosyncrasies and language that is celebrated by that subculture, which is very, very important to engage with them. Because that’s what it’s about, it’s about celebrating that lifestyle. On the other side of things is family, and when it comes to family, we have to be very, very careful that we are not staging moments in park that are inauthentic, because again, what we sell is authenticity at its core, is what we’re about and when it comes to family holidays in our parks.
Mohit Bhargava: We are very, very clear and very careful about ensuring that we are speaking to the customer and they’re not being delivered content or information that won’t resonate with them.
Mark Jones: Yeah. It almost sounds like a gut thing. You just know.
Mohit Bhargava: Well, you know, when a brand has been around for 40 years and the product has been around that long as well, in these sort of environments, it’s not too different to your subcultures like surfing or skiing for that matter. Caravaning and camping is a lifestyle choice, and if you’re not speaking with authenticity and you don’t get that, and the people in your content team don’t get it, it’s going to get undone pretty quick.
Mark Jones: When do we get to find out about your big campaign?
Mohit Bhargava: There is none. I mean, I just talked to you about the fact that we have no campaigns. What we’re looking to do is-
Mark Jones: What’s the big idea?
Mohit Bhargava: The big idea, it’ll all unfold in good time, Mark. The one thing that we are trying to do, right? Instead of big ideas, we’re looking at what are the big pain points for our customers and how do we alleviate all of those one at a time, to make it an absolutely seamless experience? People love holidaying in the parks, but how do we make getting to the parks as easy as possible? How can technology help with that and how can content help with that and how can personalisation help with that?
Mohit Bhargava: It’s a layered approach. I wish there was a silver bullet, but really, our focus at the moment is transitioning away from a big campaign to really about, “Okay, what are the key pain points that we can alleviate? What are the key triggers to drive trials in that category?”
Mark Jones: Well, it sounds like you’ve got your head around it really well, so I do wish you all the best. I think that as you say, it’s fascinating to hear how you’re reinterpreting the, modern family in Australia and creating experiences. All the best with a very interesting set of challenges ahead of you in the coming weeks, months, and years.
Mohit Bhargava: Mark, thank you so much. Thank you for having me. Wish you all the best.
Mark Jones: There’s this great quote in the interview, he’s talking about, we take the great Australian family holiday, kind of reminds me of the great Australian dream, with a quarter acre block and the hills hoist out the back. It’s kind of quite nostalgic and fun really. Of course, those old school, iconic images have been replaced by a far more dynamic and diverse and interesting world that we live in and it’s interesting to hear how Mohit is progressively stepping through all of the different forms of change that are required inside the Big4 organisation, and making sure that they’re connecting to different types of audiences.
Mark Jones: And then as a professional, thinking about, “Now, how am I going to do this from a CRM perspective?” They’re getting all your digital lined up I thought was quite interesting, and also content. Being able to partner with the Wiggles is an interesting, creative idea, and it makes me think who are the famous people in your sector that you could think out of the box with? How could you partner with, movie stars or bands and other things that might have a particular type of reach in a really niche and targeted, relevant way. What could you do in those spaces? Great ideas.
Mark Jones: Thank you once again for joining usIt’s great fun, as always. I encourage you to like us on the various aggregators and channels of choice and we will see you next time.