The CMO Show:
Yves Calmette on cause marketing...

Yves Calmette, CMO at World Wide Fund for Nature Australia (WWF), talks to host Mark Jones about harnessing the power of cause marketing to create global impact.

When you’re genuinely passionate about a particular cause, how do you convince others they need to care about it as much as you do?

It’s a question that Yves Calmette, Chief Marketing Officer at World Wide Fund for Nature Australia (WWF), is working to answer.

With more than 15 years experience in international advertising agencies based in Australia and Europe, Yves is determined to drive change and save our environment.

“We are at a turning point. The most recent science has shown that if we want to stop the destruction of nature and the planet, we’ve got only 10 years left. We’re not talking about 50 years, or 100 years. If we don’t act now, it’s going to be too late,” he says.

To influence an audience, Yves says finding an effective way to connect with people on a personal level is an imperative. As soon as the motivation becomes personal, organisations can start to shift beliefs and behaviours.

“We’re really trying to engage people emotionally at a sort of fundamental level. I think Our Planet series is a fantastic example of belief moments because you might watch the documentary and find that it shifts your belief from maybe being unaware or not believing that it’s a particular issue to now reconsider your views,” Yves says.

Tune into this episode of The CMO Show to find out how marketers can harness the power of cause marketing to create global impact.

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The CMO Show production team

Producer – Charlotte Goodwin & Natalie Cupac

Audio Engineers – Daniel Marr & Tom Henderson

Got an idea for an upcoming episode or want to be a guest on The CMO Show? We’d love to hear from you: cmoshow@filteredmedia.com.au.

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Transcript

Host: Mark Jones

Guest: Yves Calmette

Mark Jones: In business and even our personal lives, we face this strong temptation to stay problem-focused and negative. We say words to ourselves like, “This isn’t working. I got these pain points,” or, “I don’t like this thing.” So, how do we pivot then to become more solution-focused and positive? We can start using words like, “What if we try this?” or, “What if we look at it this way?” or, “How can we make this better?” The next trick is how do we make people care enough to step up and take action?

Mark Jones: Hello there. Mark Jones and I am your host, The CMO Show, and it’s great to have you with me on an exciting podcast with Yves Calmette. He’s the CMO at the World Wide Fund for Nature Australia or WWF Australia I’ve been wanting to speak with Yves for quite some time. We met a while ago on an industry panel and I was really fascinated by his perspective coming from Europe into the Australian market and the work that he’s done over the years.

Mark Jones: We talk about the problems we’re facing in our world today, why it’s so hard to turn things around. We go on to talk about what goes into marketing and environmental NGO, like WWF, which of course, globally, has this incredible brand awareness. And we talk about how we educate people who don’t have a sustainability passion for themselves. How do they connect with this story that the WWF is putting out? I’m really excited about this and I hope you enjoy the conversation as much as I did.

Mark Jones: Yves Calmette, CMO at World Wide Fund for Nature or WWF Australia. Yves, it’s great to have you on the show.

Yves Calmette: Thank you to having me.

Mark Jones: Yeah. Well, we met a little while ago, actually, on a panel and, let’s just talk about WWF for a minute.

Yves Calmette: Sure.

Mark Jones: You do global work, but you also have an Australian base. I think people are a bit confused about that. Do you want to give us a quick primer on the WWF?

Yves Calmette: No, that’s a very good question because, it’s part of one of the challenges for people in Australia to understand who we are. Actually, WWF, World Wide Fund for Nature, is a global organisation. It started in Switzerland in ’61, and we have now more than 100 offices in different countries. It’s the largest conservation NGO with more than 5,000 staff, so it’s really massive. It’s, as well, the most reputable conservation NGO in the world.

Yves Calmette: The Australian Office, we pretty much work just like a franchise model. Each office is very independent, but we still have to follow guiding principles, brand guidelines. We share the same strategy when it comes to tackle environmental issues across the globe, but each country, like Australia, has its own agenda. Australia is the seventh WWF office in the world. We have more than 100 staff across Australia and, while we are really well known when it comes to protecting endangered species, we do much more than that.

Yves Calmette: In particular in Australia, we work on climate change. We work with governments, we work with businesses, we look after the oceans, habitat, so it’s really much, much wider and broader than species only.

Mark Jones: Yes. I can’t imagine a more a broader and a more complicated remit than all of those different areas. You also work very closely with your international colleagues and you’re on a board or a global committee. Just give us a quick insight into how that works.

Yves Calmette: I am one of the 10 elected CMOs within the WWF network. We attend CMOs sitting in the communication leadership group and we are in charge of managing the brand at the global level, and as well to develop the global communication strategy for the whole network and, in particular, with a focus on key international initiatives like Earth Hour, an open-source grass-root movement, created by WWF Australia in Sydney more than 12 years ago, 

Yves Calmette: and now it’s the largest grass-root climate change awareness movement in the world with pretty much 96% of the countries on this planet participating. Part of the communication leadership group, so we look at Earth Hour every year. We look as well at, every two years, there’s the leading planetary report, the flagship application for the WWF, which is the hard science showing how we are progressing, in terms of protecting the planet or how bad it becomes, I should say.

Yves Calmette: Last year, and it’s still running now, we were managing the Our Planet project, which is a Netflix production with eight episodes, but it’s much more than that. It’s digital content, it’s events. There’s even a feature movie with David Attenborough that will be released in 2020, and these projects reached more than 1 billion people. This is pretty much what I co-lead at the international level.

Mark Jones: That’s amazing. Actually, just on that, I’ve got to say I’m a big fan of those documentary series and it’s incredible to see that sort of scale and reach for these sorts of stories. Give us an insight, before we get into a lot of those details, climate change and, if you like, the mission of WWF is front and centre across the globe. 

Mark Jones: We’re seeing, I think, a real escalation of community interest and a real desire to do something. What’s your view on what’s happening in the world right now?

Yves Calmette: A really good question. We are, I think, at a turning point because, now we know that the most recent science has shown that if we want to stop the destruction of nature and the planet, we’ve got only 10 years left. We’re not talking about 50 years, 100 years, it’s 10 years left. Meaning that, if we don’t act now, it’s going to be too late.

Yves Calmette: As Barack Obama said many times, we are the first generation to know how to save the planet, but we are as well the last that can change things.This is why we are … we just launched at Davos, at the World Economic Forum in Davos in January, WWF just launched what we call the New Deal For People and Nature because, if we really want to tackle the climate change crisis and the loss of biodiversity, we really need to really do everything that we’ve been doing for years at scale, because we are losing the war at the moment.

Yves Calmette: There’s a lot of hope at the same time, because we’ve got the technology. We’ve got, as you said, communities want that to happen, but at the same time you’ve got a really strong and popular world leaders that challenge science, that put growth and economy before everything else, when actually now it’s really a matter of really looking at what needs to be done to save the planet, and we don’t have any other option. 

Mark Jones: Yes. I think that tension is really palpable these days between continued economic growth at all costs versus this protection narrative which, obviously, is critical. How do you think about that from a story perspective?

Mark Jones: How difficult is it becoming to inspire people to do something? We listen to a lot of messages about the problems, but how can we inspire more people to actually make change? Is that something that you think about in your role?

Yves Calmette: It is totally something that I think in my role because, I think this is the major challenge. I would say it’s way beyond consumers, but it’s as well governments, businesses, the civil society, every stakeholder has a role to play in this story. But, as you said just like in many industries, there’s a massive gap between knowledge and action.

Yves Calmette: Our role now, and our challenge is really, as we say, to go beyond the green bubble, because it’s really easy to talk to people who read The Guardian or had already a sustainable way of living. What we need to really change is the beliefs and behaviour of . what we could call the quiet Australians.

Yves Calmette: What we are looking at, at the moment, is really to find the right insights to, what we call, the objects of care, to really make sure that once we understand that, what the priorities of consumers and businesses and governments are. Then we are able to really address those motivations and to totally adapt the way we communicate and we engaged with these people. When it comes to consumers, it’s true that we know from research the more you talk about what could happen in the future, we know that it doesn’t work or it doesn’t work anymore. We know that what works in Australia, for instance, is to tap into what we call, the Aussie pride.

Yves Calmette: when you look from One Nation to the Greens, when we talk to people that we could lose our koala populations within 20 years or 30 years, they start thinking, “Well, this is not the country that I want to leave to my kids and grandkids.” As soon as the motivation become personal, we can start to shift beliefs and behaviours, but for sure it’s a massive challenge because, as I told you, we don’t have 30 years to change behaviours. When we wanted people to stop smoking, it took 40 or 50 years to get where we are now. We have only 10 years to make people change.

Mark Jones: I’m sitting here trying not to panic, actually.

Yves Calmette: No, but, again …

Mark Jones: That’s horrifying.

Yves Calmette: No, but at the same time there’s massive hope and this is where … At WWF it’s in our DNA to be optimistic and positive and not for the sake of being positive always, but it’s because there’s massive hope, in particular when we look at technology and, going back to marketing and communication, when it comes to digital and blockchain and artificial intelligence, there are things that we can totally leverage off to really create new movements, to be able to engage even more with people, and to make them act in a way that will eventually save the planet.

Mark Jones: Let’s stay with that positive tone.

Yves Calmette: Sorry.

Mark Jones: Yeah, just so I can sleep. I wanted to zone in on this idea of our belief systems. It’s something I speak about, actually, when it comes to how brands can better tell stories, is we create belief moments. There’re stories that engage both hearts and minds, so we have to have a factual message, but really, the message has to be very much emotion-driven and in an authentic way.

Mark Jones: We’re really trying to engage people emotionally at a sort of a fundamental level. I think Our Planet series, for example, are fantastic examples of belief moments because, you might watch that documentary and it shifts your belief from maybe being unaware or not believing that it’s a particular issue to now reconsidering your views. Can you just speak a bit about that and, what are the types of belief moments that you’re looking to create in the minds of consumers?

Yves Calmette: There isn’t one-size-fits-all in this matter. For each campaign that we are running, whether they’re advocacy or fundraising, the way we can get people’s attention varies.when we embarked on campaigning against deforestation in Australia because Australia is one of the worst spots in the world when it comes to deforestation, and deforestation is directly linked to climate change, which has an impact on the reef. Everything is interconnected, but when we embarked on this campaign to try to really engage the Australian public with the issue of deforestation, everyone was pushing us to really talk about changing laws and these kind of things.

Yves Calmette: Actually what we found is that people, first of all, they were not aware of the deforestation crisis in Australia. Then, as soon as they were aware of that, they were totally ready to support us to stop that. If they were ready to stop that, it’s because they could understand that deforestation had a direct impact on koala populations, for instance, or the iconic species in Australia or iconic places like the reef. So by really putting koalas as the flagship of our campaign instead of showing trees, we really focused on koalas and it had a massive, massive success, whether it’s in terms of engagement, so people joining WWF, people donating for WWF, and to have an impact when it comes to all the political parties to really consider their policies when it comes to deforestation. 

Mark Jones: Right. That’s because we have an emotional connection to koalas, but not always the same emotional connection to trees.

Yves Calmette: Exactly. It was because what we ask people to do was so simple that they totally joined us. We have a massive ambition to make sure that the Great Barrier Reef, not anymore gill nets in the northern Great Barrier Reef, meaning that because all these massive gill nets are not only fishing a lot of fish, but on top of that, they catch dolphins, turtles, dugongs. What we want is to make sure that it doesn’t happen anymore.

Yves Calmette: The idea that we had, which was totally an innovative idea in the conservation space, is that when we heard that a fisherman was selling his licence, we totally jumped on that and decided to buy the net, but we needed more than $300,000, which is a massive budget for us, money that we don’t have, given that we are a nonprofit. By simply asking Australians to crowd fund to buy the net, we were planning to have a campaign of eight weeks. In 48 hours, we were able to buy the net. Again, it was easy for them. They just could give a few dollars but, really over 48 hours, they knew they could do something really quickly. It was really possible. It empowered everyone and we achieved what we wanted to do.

Mark Jones: That’s fantastic, and it just shows you how much appetite there is in the community to work with an organisation like you. There’s another aspect to this that I’ve been wrestling with, and actually working with some clients on, the difference between marketing activities and, perhaps, consumer and donor campaigns such as you’ve just described and then direct advocacy and the public affairs work where you’re targeting governments and officials and working at that level. Can you give us a perspective on how you balance those two worlds?

Yves Calmette: A very good question because, it goes hand in hand. We know that you can have, in some cases, having the Australian public really willing to change things on climate change if the government doesn’t want to do it’s part, it’s really, really difficult. The way we work at WWF is, we really try and lobby governments as much as we can. At the same time, we really need to use our influence with the Australian public to have an impact on governments’ policies. We have more now than 1 million supporters in Australia and it’s really, really powerful because, everybody knows in the conservation space and beyond that, that when WWF wants to really change things, everyone knows that we’ve got this power of 1 million-plus Australian people willing to make a difference. It’s really, really powerful.

Mark Jones: But how does that work out in practical terms? I mean, you sort of zeroing in] on particular individuals or certain politicians?

Yves Calmette: We are not a political organisation at all, it’s in our DNA. We never campaign for a party, so it’s very, very important to us. We work with all governments, we work with all businesses, which is a very strong point of difference with many other conservation organisations, but it means that we have regular briefings with governments. We published reports, we try everything possible to influence policies.

Yves Calmette: At the state level and at the federal level and, at the international level, whether it’s the UN. It’s a very systematic approach because, we know that without policy changes, nothing happens.

Mark Jones: It sounds you’re like the good guys, the very polite people in the room.

Yves Calmette: Yes, exactly.

Mark Jones: How do you keep your cool when we’ve got 10 years to go?

Yves Calmette: Well, no, that’s true, because it’s really easy not to keep our cool, but we do because,This is what we call our theory of change, we know that you need to have everyone from the society, any kind of organisations, you need to have everyone together if you want to make a difference. I mean, this is why our tagline at the international level is Together Possible. It’s because we need everyone.

Yves Calmette: The New Deal for People and Nature with those 10 years left, 2020 is what we call the super year. There’s going to be an update on the Paris Agreement. There’s going to be an update as well on the sustainable development goals that lead the international agenda when it comes to climate and development, so we’ve got really massive big dates in 2020. Our goal is to have the New Deal for People and Nature endorsed, which is the equivalent of Paris Agreement, but for biodiversity and nature. We want that endorsed by end of 2020 with really clear measures and to be able to really use the 10 years that we have until 2030 to change things and restore nature.

Mark Jones: Now, I can’t let that change theory go past without further development. How did you come up with that? Just expand on it a little bit first and the principles behind it and, what informed it, because it sounds like that’s a global perspective.

Yves Calmette: Yeah. I mean, if I take the example of food, for instance, the impact of food in the way it’s produced, consumed and wasted on the planet and on climate change, you can see that, if you try to convince only consumers to change the way they eat, it’s not going to be enough, because we know that, for instance, 40% of food waste is made even before the food reach the supermarkets.

Mark Jones: Yes.

Yves Calmette: Then there’s another 30% in the supermarket and another 30% at home. Clearly, if you don’t tackle the way the agriculture is developed, and before that, the way governments are developing policies when it comes to food production, if you don’t tackle the whole chain, you might win fights, but you won’t win at the end. Our theory of change is really to look at everyone, I mean, we’re not scared of working with industries that are polluting the planet because, if we don’t work with them, they’re not going to change. We prefer to work with those people, because they have a massive impact and, if we succeed in changing the way they produce whatever they produce, this is how we can make massive, massive change at scale.

Mark Jones: Yeah. It’s really a holistic approach to the supply chains, for example, and then all the stakeholders, which leads me to ask the next question, which is, as the CMO, tell me about how you think about the brand and how you connect the marketing activities and the campaigns that you run with this broader change agenda. What’s the mindset that you bring to marketing the panda that we all love?

Yves Calmette: No, exactly that. I mean, we’ve got such a beautiful and powerful brand. As you said, either people love us or they don’t care, but no one hates us. It puts us in a very good position to talk to governments, to talk to businesses if we want to develop partnerships and to talk to everyone, basically. Trust is critical more and more these days for any kind of sector, but when it comes to the non-for-profit sector, I mean, trust is really critical.

Yves Calmette: We are lucky enough to have been listed as the most reputable conservation NGO for the last few years, globally and locally. It’s really, really important, but we need to be super careful. What we decided three years ago is to really position the organisation as a customer-centric organisation, which was a massive, massive shift compared to the way we used to do things. It means that marketing and comms have really a strategic role to play and it has totally changed the way we do things and we communicate with people.

Yves Calmette: This is how, given we had this impetus in the strategic plan, I decided to really restructure the marketing department, and to use an in-house agency model, so we pretty much work like an internal communication agency, digital-led, of course. It helps us be super consistent. We are a content powerhouse now. We really develop a lot of content for any kind of campaigns, and we have seen our influence grow really, really rapidly with, not only impact on the number of supporters, but as well in terms of fundraising.

Mark Jones: That’s interesting, the in-house versus agency model has been one that, I guess it goes through swings and roundabouts. Sometimes it’s in favour and others … What are the pros and cons that you’ve seen from your experience?

Yves Calmette: I come from a agency background, so I love agencies. I highly respect the work that agencies do. If I could work more with agencies, I would, but as a non-for-profit I had to make the most of the budget that we have and I decided to invest more in creating this new structure.

Yves Calmette: It’s really good, because we can be very agile. We have passionate people and we turn things around really, really, really quickly, but as well, at the same time, we work with agencies when we really need it because, again, I know the added value that an agency can bring, so we don’t hesitate when we have to-

Mark Jones: When needed, yeah.

Yves Calmette: … but really, at the end of the day, it’s a matter of return on investment and cost.

Mark Jones: Which is a good jumping point to ask, how do you measure the growth of your brand and what are the tools that you’re using?

Yves Calmette: As I mentioned before, trust is really, really important for us. We invest in brand health tracking. We’ve got a survey every two years and we measure awareness, familiarity, consideration, proximity and reputation. We’ve been doing that for many years and, actually, it’s a model that international developed, so we can benchmark our results against what’s happening in Germany or in the U.S. or globally, but as well we can really track our brand health over time, so it’s extremely useful.

Yves Calmette: As well, we do every year the reputation track survey which is done for the charity sector. It measures the reputation of the organisation and it compares the reputation against all the other NGOs in Australia. Then, we’ve got hard metrics, like number of supporters, financial and nonfinancial, including social media followers. We’ve got engagement rate and then all the metrics associated to our websites and traffic and digital performance, all of that.

Mark Jones: Okay. Ostensibly, there’re surveys, but are they surveys of existing members or is it the public …?

Yves Calmette: Yeah, it’s a survey with a sample of a representative of the Australian population. It’s more than 2,000 people across the country, so it’s really reliable.

Mark Jones: On the creative side, how are you leveraging the insights from your global partners, from the surveys? How are you looking at what your team can do different because, obviously, you’ve got to keep finding new angles into these stories. Granted, the crises around the world are giving you plenty of opportunity, but from a marketing communications perspective, how are you coming up with these new ideas, new takes on old problems?

Yves Calmette: It’s all about data and insights and about finding the sweet spot between what consumers want to hear or are ready to hear and what we want to push. It’s always a really fine balance between those two, but I guess we are very, very lucky because, we’ve got a wealth of content, a wealth of stories from the field with beautiful images, stories from local communities, indigenous communities in Australia and from all over the world.

Yves Calmette: I mean, we are spoiled by choice. Having said that, again, quite often it’s not enough to get people’s attention. This is when data that we get from web traffic, that we get from tracking the results of each EDM that we sent from market research. It’s looking at that, this is how then that we can make sure that the content that we have matches with what people want or are ready to hear.

Mark Jones: Insights from your data is the source for creativity, but I know that if we look at Earth Hour, for example, that came from the agency side. Sometimes, you need these big moments. You need to think about something from an entirely different perspective. Do you have more big ideas coming up or is it just a case of leveraging these various campaigns that you’ve already got in market?

Yves Calmette: At the moment, yes, we’ve got big campaigns that we manage in-house, but again, on those big campaigns, we’ve got a campaign on a deforestation, another one on climate, another one on certain species but, as I said before, we don’t hesitate to bring agencies to give us some big ideas that can change a little bit the way we do things. But, clearly, I’m working at the moment on really, as you said, generating or finding or nailing a new big idea when it comes to conservation. Because it’s true that, as you said, people are concerned, but they don’t know what to do or some people don’t care.

Yves Calmette: Given that we know that we are, at the moment, losing the war, if we really want to win, I think we really need to nail a new conservation narrative. It’s a big challenge for everyone in the conservation space because, everything has been said, but it’s not enough. What I’m working on at the moment is really this meta-narrative, something new, that will really engage the audiences that we haven’t been able to reach or engage with so far.

Mark Jones: Yeah. I guess, for me, for my two cents, I feel like one of the missing things is the positive change story. What is being done, what has been done, and how you can translate macro-global problems to my daily life and something I can meaningfully do, but celebrating those small things in a way that is not disingenuous or lacking substance.

Yves Calmette: You’re exactly right we are always hopeful and we always want to give a positive story but, as you said, we might not have been doing that enough. I’m really convinced, just like you said, that giving hope, giving solutions, easy to implement is really, really the way to go.

Mark Jones: I’ve got to ask this question. It’s the Sir David Attenborough Fan Boy Club question, have you worked with him or what do your colleagues say about working with him, because, it’s a fun question, but also a serious one about how you engage influencers, these global voices who have incredible power, what’s it like?

Yves Calmette: I mean, I haven’t personally worked directly with him, but I know that … he’s more than 90 years old and he’s totally dedicated to the cause. This is exactly the way we work with influencers because, the last thing we want is someone to do everything possible to be famous and to use our brands and our messages to do so. So, every single influencer that we work with, we’ve got a long in-depth process to talk to them, collaborate and really to make sure that we are both at the same level and fully dedicated to saving the planet. 

Mark Jones: Yeah. I think that’s incredible. I wonder what the future of these micro influences might be. When you’re used to working with the David Attenborough, somebody with a couple of million in their Instagram feed really isn’t that exciting anymore, is it?

Yves Calmette: No. You know what, so we could have big names like that, but as well we work with local bloggers, influencers that can have a massive impact on the local communities. This is something that we are developing at the moment. We are even involved in video games, like online video games, where you’ve got communities talking to each other and, really, when we can be part of these communities, this is where we can have a massive impact as well and, as you said, to give hope and to really be positive for the future.

Mark Jones: Well, maybe here’s to a small army of the smaller people and getting them on board. 

Yves Calmette: No, exactly. Definitely.

Mark Jones: That’s great. Well, in closing, what’s your advice to marketers who are working for not-for-profits or in cause-related organisations or perhaps even those who aspire to be, how do you simplify big global issues and bring things down to a daily tactical to-do list? What’s your best advice for getting stuff done?

Yves Calmette: I would say, I approach my job just like I used to do in advertising agencies,  it’s exactly the same thing. It’s not big because the problem is bigger that it changes the way you, when you are a marketer, the way you do things. Really, to use your methodology, to really do only things when it’s evidence-based because, again, and for WWF it’s even more important, because we are a science-based organisation, but in any kind of organisation, in any campaigns, if you want to convince, make a difference, engage with the public, it has to be evidence-based.

Yves Calmette: Again, using the, as in many agencies for many years, the right message to the right people using the right channel at the right time. This is something that has been used for decades. Now we’ve got the technology to make that happen and, in the non profit sector, this is how we can really do things at scale. Not to forget, which is, again, going back to the brand, I think making sure that you nurture your brand and that you put trust first and foremost.

Mark Jones: I agree. Yves, it’s been fantastic to have you on the show. I wish you all the best with this new, big, creative idea that you’re working on. I’m very curious to see how that goes, and all the best on changing hearts and minds here in Australia and around the world.

Yves Calmette: Thank you so much. It’s been a pleasure.

Mark Jones: So, that was Yves Calmette and I got to say, we’ve covered some pretty scary topics. I can’t stop thinking about it. This 10 year deadline, I’ve never heard it put in quite such stark terms and you compare that to other long-term change programmes we just don’t have the runway quite clearly. And that’s arresting at a personal level, at a community level, and then also of course, professionally speaking, how do you get people to have that sense of urgency in something so big? How do we boil it down to tactical, practical things that you can do?

Mark Jones: I got to say I really loved his optimism and his belief that if we all work together, we can make a difference. I’ve heard David Attenborough himself say words to that effect, that you’ve got to get up and you’ve got to believe that we actually can make a difference. And so, I love the fact that we get to combine in an interview like this, this professional attitude and professional skills that we have to marketing communications with our hopefulness about effecting real world change, because isn’t that of course what we’re all trying to do? When it’s all said and done, I would encourage you to really think about your brand and do you know what your audience really cares about and how are you using that to inform your work? How are you being inspired by the ethics and the values and the belief systems of your customers and from the community? It’s the best place to start when it comes to affecting change.

Mark Jones: Well, that brings us to the end of another episode of The CMO Show. If you want to reach out and let us know what you thought of the episode, let me know. I’d love to connect with you on LinkedIn. You can also get us at thecmoshow.filteredmedia.com.au. Enjoy the rest of your week. I’ll see you next time.


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